Why Germany Won- Timeline of the Third Reich 1933-2010

[FederationX]

I wrote this timeline based off of Harry Turtledoves novel In the Presence of Mine Enemies . There were so many unanswered questions that I wanted to make them myself. Even if you didn't read the book you'll know whats going on. This is just a rough draft and focuses on the timeline of his book, not the plausibily of it. This is just my idea on how the Nazified world formed. Some things have almost a ) percent chance of happening but some how they happend in the book, so whatever. There will be more later, including Part 2 and some more information appendixes. Here is Part One:

Greater German Reich



1933 to 1936- President-elect Franklin Roosevelt is assassinated by Giuseppe Zangara on February 15th in Miami, Florida. Zangara is caught and tried for the murders of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Chicago mayer, Anton Cermak. He is executed in just 33 days later, death by the electric chair. On March 4th, Vice-President elect John Garner is inaugurated as President of the United States. Garner opposes the late Roosevelt's New Deal policy and keeps a status-quo approach to the depression. Over the next few years the economy sinks even lower. Unemployment hits an all time high of 37% percent in 1935 and rioting breaks out in many major cities across the country. Garner uses the United States Army to put down many of the riots, causing severe civil disorder. On April 5th, 1936, Garner is able to get Congress to ratify temporary martial law over the entire nation. Military governors are installed in the most troublesome states, including New York, Pennsylvania and California. All civilian courts are suspended until further notice and military tribunals are activated. Congress passes a bill enlarging the military to almost twice its size. The U.S. Army reaches a size of 400,000 men by the summer of 1936, many of them policing the nation. Rioting and looting becomes almost non-existent thanks to military occupation. In October of 1936, martial law is lifted and the elections of 1936 are to be taken place. Garner is renominated by the Democrats , almost by military force. The Republicans nominate Alfred Landon as President and promise to bring the nation back to normal. Their main platform is isolationism and fixing the economy. (1) In November, John Garner and his running mate, Wendell Wilkie lose the election by a landslide. Garner is only able to win four states and loses the popular vote by almost 16 million votes.

1937 to 1940 – The United States is able to improve their economy with many of the principals of the late Franklin Roosevelt. Unemployment drops to 15 percent by 1939 and Landon is considered a hero to the American people. In September 1939, Nazi Germany invades Poland. The United Kingdom and France declare war on Germany, setting off the Second World War. President Landon promises to keep the United States out of European affairs and pushes for even greater isolationism. He vows that the economy is the number one goal for America and interfering in Europe will shatter the economy. In 1940 he wins the Presidential election by over 100 electoral votes, defeating his weak Democratic opponent Henry Wallace. In Europe, Germany defeats Poland, France, Holland, Luxembourg, Norway and Belgium. Germany, Italy and Japan sign the Tripartite Pact in September of 1940. In England, Winston Churchill becomes Prime Minister. From May to October 1940, Germany is able to destroy much of the Royal Air Force, winning the battle of Britain. Denmark hands over Ireland and Greenland to the United States for they do not want the Nazis in control there.

1941 to 1944 – With Germany's air victory against Britain, they begin Operation Sealion, the invasion of the United Kingdom. German air superiority is able to destroy much the Royal Navy, and the invasion begins in June of 1941. Britain fights with fury and protests for American help. President Landon declines and says he believes in strict neutrality. The Battle of London is fought in November of 1941. Erwin Rommel's Panzer divisions break the British defenses of the city and by January of 1942, all resistance ceases in the city. The Royal Family, Winston Churchill and much of the government are able to escape to Canada. A provisional government is set up in Leeds and surrenders in April. By the end of 1943, many of the former British colonies and possessions are annexed into the Reich, including India. South Africa becomes an Aryan dominated union, allied to Germany. In 1944, Germany puts the British Union Fascists incharge of Britain. Northern Ireland is attached to Ireland and becomes an ally with Germany. Canada, Australia and New Zealand make a status-quo peace with the Axis.

In June 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union, breaking the non-aggression pact. German troops win the Battle of Moscow and the first Panzer IV enters the Kremlin compound. In January 1942, Stalin is found dead in the city. Leningrad is taken eight months later. German forces are able to defeat the unorganized Russian troops at Stalingrad and in January 1943 they take the city. The Russian government collapses and there is no formal surrender. Millions of civilians are murdered or sent to concentration camps. By the end of 1944 almost 35 million civilians have been killed (2) . The war in Europe ends. In the Pacific, the Dutch East Indies are peacefully handed over to Japan. Queen Wilhelmina does not wish to continue the fight. Japan is able to keep relations open with the United States and does not declare war. The Second World War ends in 1944 with Germany and Japan as the top dogs.

1945 to 1968 – Nazi Germany starts to rebuild Europe. The Greater German Reich annexes all of Poland into Germany itself. Bohemia-Moravia, Alsace-Lorraine, Danzig, Luxembourg and Lithuania are also directly annexed into the Third Reich. Estonia and Latvia are combined to form one country, under German occupation. The Ukraine and Belorussia become colonies of the Reich. France remains occupied and Britain becomes an official member of the Greater German Reich. Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Greece and Norway become members as well. Finland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Portugal, South Africa and Japan all become allies to Germany by 1955.
Greenland and Ireland remain protectorates of the United States. The United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Chili and Brazil create the Organization of Allied Nations or OAN. The United States tries to keep good relations with the Axis. Presidents Dewey and Stevenson keep open ties with all the nations of the Axis. In 1957, Japan annexes all of China after 20 years of fighting.

Germany tests their first nuclear bomb in 1947. Japan in 1953 and the United States 1956. Hermann Goring dies in 1953 in a jet plane accident. Adolf Hitler dies in 1958 of a liver aliment and is replaced by Heinrich Himmler. Italy and Germany commit genocide in the Middle East, killing off more then the 80 percent of the total population. The population of the former Soviet Union drop to 30 million and the German government opens it to colonization. Himmler calls upon the German people that North America has the “Jewish Problem.� The United States does not back down to Germany and declares the Reich to be a nation of racists. Himmler says in a speech to the Reichstag in 1963 that the United States and Canada will one day be liberated from the Jew someday. Mexico allows a German defense force to enter the country. Mexico cited the American people were aggressive and would one day invade again. By 1965 over 175,000 German troops have entered Mexico. President Humphrey (1961-1965) appeases to the German government and lets this defense force enter Mexico. In December of 1968, Germany accuses the United States of violating its airspace over Scotland. President Henry Cabot Lodge (1965-1970) denounces these claims and mobilizes the armed forces. On January 4th, 1969 , Germany (and its allies) and Japan declare war on the United States and the rest of the OAN.

1969 to 1970 –

1969 - The Third World War started out non-nuclear. Japan bombs Hawaii and begins an invasion of the Philippines. The U.S. Pacific Fleet holds its own in the South Pacific and counterattacks near Taiwan. The Luftwaffe begins bombing runs over Alaska and British Columbia, killing thousands. German troops make a thrust up through Texas and New Mexico with over 375,000 troops stationed in Mexico. V-6 rockets bombard American cities on the East Coast, killing tens of thousands. Germany and Japan demand a surrender from the USA, but they refuse. In September, Japan wins at the Battle of the Coral Sea, destroying 6 American aircraft carriers and 3 battleships. Japan then begins an invasion of Australia. The following month, the Philippines and Guam fall to Japan, while Iceland is captured by Germany in the Atlantic. German troops are halted near Lubbock, Texas with tactical nuclear weapons. Germany relates with the nuclear bombing of Boston. A three megaton nuclear bomb hits the city, killing almost everyone in it. On December 7th, 1969, Japan captures Midway and Wake Island. U.S forces in the Pacific fall back to Hawaii, mustering up their defenses. On December 28th, the Aleutian Islands U.S. Marine garrison surrenders after a two month conflict on the islands.

1970 – In March, the new V-7 rocket comes into service. The first one ever is launched from Munich, Germany, heading towards Toronto, Canada. It is armed with a one megaton nuclear warhead. Toronto is destroyed in a massive nuclear fireball and the next day the Canadian government revokes its membership in the OAN and surrenders to Germany.

The United States counterattacks into Mexico and reaches Mexico City in May. The U.S. wins the Battle of Mexico City. Over 300,000 Mexicans die, compared to only 25,000 Americans. In retaliation, Germany nukes Atlanta and Pittsburgh. The United States in return launches its obsolete nuclear missiles towards Mexico and Germany. The missiles heading towards Mexico are successful, killing over 30 million people. However, the missiles going towards Germany are all stopped. In the Pacific, Japan invades Hawaii. Honolulu and Hilo are taken within only a few weeks. In June, Australia and New Zealand surrender to Japan, after Sydney and Auckland fall to Japanese forces.

Germany offers the United States one more time to surrender, however, they due not. Germany launches nuclear missiles towards the continental USA. Washington D.C. , Philadelphia, Hartford, San Francisco, Seattle, Houston, Miami, Detroit, Nashville and Denver vanish from the earth. Germany also targets military installations and outposts, destroying the American power to fight. On August 13th, 1970, the United States of America surrenders to the Greater German Reich, its allies and the Empire of Japan. Heinrich Himmler declares a day of celebration across the Reich and has fighter jets fly over Berlin and New York. The American territories in the Pacific and Hawaii are annexed by Japan. The rest of the United States and Canada become occupied nations, under German rule.
Hundreds of thousands of German troops occupy the United States. New York, Los Angeles, St. Louis and Chicago are targeted first for cleanup of the Jews and Blacks. Millions of people are rounded up and put into ghettos. People rat out their Jewish and Slavic neighbors in return for not being sent to the internment camps. Japanese Americans are deported to Japan, while the American Native American peoples are killed right on the spot. The new American puppet government is set up in Omaha, Nebraska. A new capitol building, occupation headquarters and a palace for the Fuhrer start to get built under German orders. The United States Armed Forces are officially disbanded and the new “Germanic Empire� sets up military bases across the nation. The United States keeps its name and territory, but nothing else. The constitution and all legal documents are now defunct and a new set of laws are written. The Liberty Bell in Philadelphia is found in the rubble of the city and is dug up by American prisoners. It is then flown back to Berlin. Australia and New Zealand are annexed by Japan.

Germany and its allies are now the rulers of the world. A new dark world has been forged from a once democratic and peace loving one.



Appendix A – The Holocaust

The Holocaust is very similar in this timeline, however over 12 million European Jews are killed, instead of 6 million. Over 100 million Russians have also been killed and the Slavic population of Europe is now gone. Many either died or went to work camps in Siberia. The former Soviet Union is now a colony of the Germanic Empire. In the Middle East, the Italian government was forced to commit genocide. Only about ten percent of the of the original population in the middle east is still alive. It is occupied and and exploited by the Germanic Empire and the Italian Empire. Oil is being taken twice as fast then in OTL. In Africa, only around 100 million blacks and Arabs exist. South Africa had a population of 30 million Whites and 1 million Blacks as of 2010. Colonization of the continent began in 1977, after the final purge in Nigeria. In China, the population is only around 475 million people as of 2010. Japan killed much of the population off in the Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1957. Mongolia is also under control of Japan, and is used for colonization of the mainland for Japanese citizens. Over 40 million American and Canadian civilians were killed in the Holocaust, either being from Slavic or African origins. As of 2010, the world population is only around 3 and half billion people.


Appendix B- The Third War Causality (dead, no wounded count at this time)

Military Civilian Holocaust Victims
United States 545,000 42,000,000 36,975,000
Germany 475,000 35,000 N/A
Japan 295,000 160,000 N/A
Canada 140,000 3,750,000 5,450,000
Axis Allies 475,000 35,500,000 N/A
OAN 1,175,000 18,000,000 25,000,000
Total 3,680,000 99,445,000 67,425,000

*Note – Under the Axis killed list, many of those are the Mexican population, as they were decimated by American nuclear weapons near the end of the war.

Appendix C – List of Presidents of the United States of America

John Garner 1933-1937 Democrat
Alfred Landon 1937-1945 Republican
Thomas Dewey 1945-1949 Republican
Adlai Stevenson 1949-1957 Democrat
Harry Byrd 1957-1961 Republican
Hubert Humphrey 1961-1965 Democrat
Henry Lodge 1965-1970 Republican

[Macsporan]

No not again!

[David S Poepoe]

"By the end of 1943, many of the former British colonies and possessions are annexed into the Reich, including India. South Africa becomes an Aryan dominated union, allied to Germany. In 1944, Germany puts the British Union Fascists incharge of Britain. Northern Ireland is attached to Ireland and becomes an ally with Germany. Canada, Australia and New Zealand make a status-quo peace with the Axis."

Are we suppose to begin laughing about the impossibility of this AH before or after this point.

[carib]

Germany invades Britain in June 1941 AND invades Russia the same time? NO!
Interesting stuff about Garner and the USA, though.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Interesting, FederationX, but let me make some comments, please.

From May to October 1940, Germany is able to destroy much of the Royal Air Force, winning the battle of Britain. Denmark hands over Ireland and Greenland to the United States for they do not want the Nazis in control there.

If that happens, there would be no need to release Seelöwe, because the UK would be undefended and Churchill would be replaced by Halifax.

German air superiority is able to destroy much the Royal Navy, and the invasion begins in June of 1941.

That's is a mistake. You're giving too much time to the British to prepare. BTW, if the RAF is not destroyed around September 1940, Hitler would postpone it ad eternum. Hitler had Barbarrossa in mind.

By the end of 1943, many of the former British colonies and possessions are annexed into the Reich, including India. South Africa becomes an Aryan dominated union, allied to Germany.

Not possible. The Empire would go on fighthing.

In 1944, Germany puts the British Union Fascists incharge of Britain.

They would be hated as Quisling was hated in Norway.

In June 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union, breaking the non-aggression pact.

Germany didn't have the sources to wage a two front war.

Adolf Hitler dies in 1958 of a liver aliment and is replaced by Heinrich Himmler.

Terrifying idea.

By 1965 over 175,000 German troops have entered Mexico.

That sounds like the Cuba crisis. I don't think that the USA would allow this to happen.

[FederationX]

"By the end of 1943, many of the former British colonies and possessions are annexed into the Reich, including India. South Africa becomes an Aryan dominated union, allied to Germany. In 1944, Germany puts the British Union Fascists incharge of Britain. Northern Ireland is attached to Ireland and becomes an ally with Germany. Canada, Australia and New Zealand make a status-quo peace with the Axis."

Are we suppose to begin laughing about the impossibility of this AH before or after this point.

I agree with you David, 100 percent. I never said it was realistic. However, in the novel, the Union of South of Africa is an ally of Germany. Remember, I'm writing off something in a turtledove timeline. I never said I thought it could or would happen. Some of the details I use are from the novel, so I don't want to change them. India is a colony of the Reich, as written in the novel and I'd assume if a peace wasn't made with Canada, Australia and New Zealand, the United States would finally enter the war.

[FederationX]

Interesting, FederationX, but let me make some comments, please.



If that happens, there would be no need to release Seelöwe, because the UK would be undefended and Churchill would be replaced by Halifax.



That's is a mistake. You're giving too much time to the British to prepare. BTW, if the RAF is not destroyed around September 1940, Hitler would postpone it ad eternum. Hitler had Barbarrossa in mind.



Not possible. The Empire would go on fighthing.



They would be hated as Quisling was hated in Norway.



Germany didn't have the sources to wage a two front war.



Terrifying idea.



That sounds like the Cuba crisis. I don't think that the USA would allow this to happen.

1. Your right, still working on it. Note-Boook mentions Churchill has PM for the entire war.

2.Same as above, however, I'm trying to get Russia and Britain taken out of the war before the United States does something. I feel a prolonged war in Europe will cause American intervention.

3.Your right, that will get changed as well. However, the United Kingdom and its colonies are powerless. India revolting seems like a possibility.

4.That may be true, but the book mentions that BUF has controlled the nation for a very long time. They also mention in the 1970s that Britain revolted and was crushed by the German military. They may not like it, but BUF rule is protected by the Reich.

5.I agree, what I wrote is horseshit for the time being. I'm trying to make my timeline based off the novel as much as I can, so I have to follow Turtledoves plans.

6. It's said in the novel that Henirich Himmler leads the party until 1985, so I thought this would be a good time to put him in power.

7.That may be true, but they get their assed whooped in World War 3, so something like this is bound to happen.

To everyone, please I'm using specific details about the war from the book. The stuff about Britain and Russia will be fixed, but some of the things said are somewhat hard to avoid. What is this all crap? For people who have read it, what do you think? If you haven't its harder to swallow the details, I know. I don't agree with everything I wrote but my goal is for it coexist with the book. MAybe I'll right my own version, without some of the stupid WW2 details Turtledove gives us.

[Kurt_Steiner]

it's interesting, federationx, go on, please.

[robertp6165]

Interesting stuff about Garner and the USA, though.

Entertaining rather than interesting. Roosevelt's New Deal actually prolonged the Depression.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/powell-jim1.html

So if Roosevelt is assassinated as per the timeline, the Depression ends within a year or two at most. Garner is not forced to declare martial law and none of that other stuff predicated on this POD happens.

[Peter]

Entertaining rather than interesting. Roosevelt's New Deal actually prolonged the Depression.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/powell-jim1.html

So if Roosevelt is assassinated as per the timeline, the Depression ends within a year or two at most. Garner is not forced to declare martial law and none of that other stuff predicated on this POD happens.

You do realize that this isn't an empiricial fact and only a theory from rightwingers?

I hate when people come dragging with their divine, flawless, obscure facts backed up by some even more obscure web-page and denouncing established theories with total confidence that this 'fact' is 100% right and everyone else is WRONG.

[Pax Britannia]

I think the timeline is great. I've been attempting to do one myself based on HT's novel. Please continue.

[DMA]

Dare I say the S word, but how does Germany pull off Sealion? There must be some major PODs in the offering, but I don't see where these are. The only outcome I see for Sealion is a lot of German dead at the white cliffs of Dover.

[FederationX]

Dare I say the S word, but how does Germany pull off Sealion? There must be some major PODs in the offering, but I don't see where these are. The only outcome I see for Sealion is a lot of German dead at the white cliffs of Dover.

Sealion could never happen. However, it happend in the novel so I have to stick with it.

[unsunghero]

This sounds an awful lot like that novel 'Fatherland' (I forget the author - dammit!). Germany becomes 'Germania' and stretches from Spain/Portugal in the West to the Urals in the East; presumably also North Africa. The holocaust is so successful that everyone thinks the Jews have all been resettled in the east - although everyone is too afraid that the truth might be different to investigate. SS become a 'kinder gentler' version of their former self - sort of a super state police. Germania is trying to court America to obtain a detente - type arrangment, apparently there are still border skirmishes w/rump Russia.

Would it be fair to say that Turtledove is running out of steam? One last note: he doesn't seem to understand why the dominions declared war on Nazi Germany - namely, for the defence of King and Country (home islands). I don't see them making peace very easily - a de facto state of war would probably continue for some years afterwards. Lots of brits would probably (try to) flee to Canada, including Churchill and the Royals - maybe remnants of the Royal Fleet. Even w/out Roosevelt, wouldn't US still end up involved - or does Japan not attack US so no mutual German declaration of war? (I haven't read this novel so I don't know)

[DMA]

Sealion could never happen. However, it happend in the novel so I have to stick with it.


Why do you have to stick with it if you yourself disagree with it? Modify the story or, better yet, come up with an explaination why Sealion succeeded.

[FederationX]

This sounds an awful lot like that novel 'Fatherland' (I forget the author - dammit!). Germany becomes 'Germania' and stretches from Spain/Portugal in the West to the Urals in the East; presumably also North Africa. The holocaust is so successful that everyone thinks the Jews have all been resettled in the east - although everyone is too afraid that the truth might be different to investigate. SS become a 'kinder gentler' version of their former self - sort of a super state police. Germania is trying to court America to obtain a detente - type arrangment, apparently there are still border skirmishes w/rump Russia.

Would it be fair to say that Turtledove is running out of steam? One last note: he doesn't seem to understand why the dominions declared war on Nazi Germany - namely, for the defence of King and Country (home islands). I don't see them making peace very easily - a de facto state of war would probably continue for some years afterwards. Lots of brits would probably (try to) flee to Canada, including Churchill and the Royals - maybe remnants of the Royal Fleet. Even w/out Roosevelt, wouldn't US still end up involved - or does Japan not attack US so no mutual German declaration of war? (I haven't read this novel so I don't know)

Ummm... this is a timeline that is supposed to lead up to the events of In the Presence of Mine Enemies written by Turtledove. I do not believe any of this really could happen. I'm writing this just to explain how Germany could have won in his timeline. In the book, the United States stays out of the war for whatever reason. Sealion somehow works and it mentions Churchill used everything he had to keep the Werchment out of London, but it fails. Most of the British Emire is annexed by Germany or Japan. A notable exception is South Africa, whuch becomes an ally of the Greater German Reich, or Germanic Empire. Around 1970, the United States loses the Third World War against Germany and Japan. It is occupied, along with Canada. So I'm just feeling in the details. Plausibilty is not the goal, its meant to be entertaining and to fill in the gap for the novel. I can't believe in 10 million years that this could happend but I want write a timeline for the novel.

The author of Fatherland is Robert Harris. :)

[FederationX]

Why do you have to stick with it if you yourself disagree with it? Modify the story or, better yet, come up with an explaination why Sealion succeeded.

Becuase I'm trying to stick with the actual story. However, I will make changes to it so it sounds better. This is based off Turtldeove novel: Nothing makes since sometimes. ;)

[DMA]

Becuase I'm trying to stick with the actual story. However, I will make changes to it so it sounds better. This is based off Turtldeove novel: Nothing makes since sometimes. ;)


Turtledove? He's hopeless. I can't believe what he writes & gets away with. Here's hoping your novel is successful & everyone forgets anything Turtledove ever wrote

[Valamyr]

Fatherland was quite more realistic for a Nazi victory scenario. It never suggested Germany pulling off a successful Sealion; merely a much more successful naval blockade of England with submarines, which was the only thing that managed to worry Churchill in OTL. Coupled with victory in the Caucasus and no american presence in Europe, this built a reasonable German victory scenario.

The numbers he gave for the continued war in the east were rather surreal though; nobody can stand a war of that intensity for 20 years on end. But it added to the atmosphere. I like how he pictured his neo-pagan, gothic Germania also.

[FederationX]

Fatherland was quite more realistic for a Nazi victory scenario. It never suggested Germany pulling off a successful Sealion; merely a much more successful naval blockade of England with submarines, which was the only thing that managed to worry Churchill in OTL. Coupled with victory in the Caucasus and no american presence in Europe, this built a reasonable German victory scenario.

The numbers he gave for the continued war in the east were rather surreal though; nobody can stand a war of that intensity for 20 years on end. But it added to the atmosphere. I like how he pictured his neo-pagan, gothic Germania also.

Yeah Fatherland was a good book.

[DMA]

Fatherland was quite more realistic for a Nazi victory scenario. It never suggested Germany pulling off a successful Sealion; merely a much more successful naval blockade of England with submarines, which was the only thing that managed to worry Churchill in OTL. Coupled with victory in the Caucasus and no american presence in Europe, this built a reasonable German victory scenario.

The numbers he gave for the continued war in the east were rather surreal though; nobody can stand a war of that intensity for 20 years on end. But it added to the atmosphere. I like how he pictured his neo-pagan, gothic Germania also.


Well as the OTL war showed, the German subs ruled for a while but then got slaughtered thanks to a lot of different reasons all of which Turtledove decides to ignore. But that's not the biggest problem, he then simply writes off the Allies by declaring D-Day failed & then the Allies surrendered like a bunch of frightened children. Crap :p :D

[Sargon]

I have to say I think Turtledove has very little understanding or knowledge of naval tactics.

I remember reading his 'World War' series, and noticing that just about all the action was either land based, or in the air above land. Granted, the lizards were said to not know much about oceans since they hadn't encountered any before, and had little understanding of shipping, so that was why they did not venture out to sea. However, this missed a massive opportunity for the humans to exploit this weakness, and he could have written far more about naval bombardments, amphibious landings, carrier strikes etc...in fact they are barely mentioned at all.

Then I read more of his books, and the lack of naval action finally brought me to the realisation that apart from writing dodgy AH, he really has no idea about naval stuff at all.... which is more of a reason why he leaves it out of his books. I then saw the plot device of World War for what it was, just covering his lack of knowledge in one specific area, and giving him an excuse not to write about it. I was sorely disappointed by it, and I feel that if World War had been real, then the humans would surely have developed the use of their navies to take advantage of the lizards lack of understanding of them...very long range heavy bombers launched from carriers etc, or extremely long range guns on ships, heavy missile launchers from ships and subs etc.

Just a cop out I feel. Not surprised about his ignoring the fight against submarines, after all he is pretty ignorant of the stuff involved.

However, I did like his 'Agent of Byzantium', so he's not a total disaster, but even that had flaws.

Sorry, that's my rant over.

Sargon

[FederationX]

Here is the rough draft for Part 2:

Nazi Empire

1971 to 1985 – Heinrich Himmler is now ruler of the world, along with the rest of Germany. In 1971, Himmler sets up a colonial office in North America which is used to exploit the cattle herds of the Great Planes, the oil in Alaska and the tobacco fields of the American South. The Germanic Colonial Ministry now controls not just Eastern Europe, Africa, or India but also North America and parts of South America. After all of the purges in the United States and Canada, the population drops to 112 million in the USA and just over 10 million in Canada. The black population drops to three percent of its original size. The German government starts to rebuild Mexico right after the war. The Mexican population drops to a staggering 35 million people by 1972. A puppet government is set up in Chilpancingo, Guerrero and asks for German help rebuilding its economy and cities. Germany agrees and sends huge amounts of monetary aid. The Mexican peso is now worth nothing, so Germany sends them Reichmarks to help bolster up the economy. In South America, Brazil and Chili become occupied. The rest of the continent joins the GAP, the Germanic Alliance for Peace.

In 1973, a Jewish uprising occurs in Moscow. Whats left of the secret Jewish population in Europe strikes in Moscow, killing thousands of new German colonists. A four week battle occurs between Jewish partisans and the SS Waffen. Most of the Jews die in the struggle, while the rest are killed in work camps in Siberia. The incident becomes will known across the world and much and many people furiously accept it. The United States public protests the genocide and pays dearly for it. Himmler bombs Chicago, killing thousands. Over 750,000 more people are killed by German occupation forces for treason. The American puppet government in Omaha, Nebraska, headed by Strom Thurmond, calls for peace across the occupied nation and demands an end to the protests. Within just days, the populace of the United States returns to normal. New military bases are set up in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and Omaha to act as a deterrent against future rebellions.

In 1975, British partisans bomb the BUF headquarters in London, killing many high up personal in the British government. This causes riots across Britain. People loot and pillage and refuse to purchase German made goods. A military base is taken over by English citizens after being bombed numerous times. An entire Panzer brigade is captured and used to attack other German bases. London is finally taken over by the English rebels and demands for Germany to go home. Germany refuses the ultimatum and lands troops in Dover. Week long battles are fought in southern England between the German Army and the rebels. By the end of December of 1975, London is retaken. Almost half a million German troops are then sent to occupy the nation once more. Much of London is destroyed for second time and must be rebuilt once again. A new British Union of Fascists party is formed and is directly influenced by the Greater German Reich.

The last half of the 1970s end somewhat peacefully. Heinrich Himmler declares that he will uphold Nazi Doctrine and party policy will remain the same as it was in Adolf Hitler's day. He decrees that France shall remain occupied and that it shall not be admitted into the Greater German Reich (GGR) . In 1978, India is admitted into the GGR as a separate nation. Indian leaders call this a step in the right direction and that they are thankful for the rights given to them as a member of the GGR. Himmler says that India is more valuable as a member of the Reich then as a colony of the Germanic Empire. However, the Colonial Ministry continues to control their economic life. In Japan, Australia and New Zealand become protectorates in 1979, ending their 8 year occupation. A new ANZAC is created to defend both nations. Most of the Japanese occupations go home and let the Aussies defend themselves. However, the Head of State of both Australia and New Zealand is Japanese. Back in Europe, Finland is awarded the former Russian provinces of Karelia and Murmansk by the GGR. Himmler decrees that these lands are of Finnish descent and should be united with the National Socialist Republic of Finland.

In 1980, Czech protesters wave the Czechoslovakian flag in Prague. They decree that they want protectorate status in the GGR. Himmler says no and crushes the rallies in the city. Hundreds are executed for treason and thousands more are sent to work camps. In Africa, the Germanic territories of OTL Botswana and Namibia are annexed by the Union of South Africa. Germany believes that these lands are better suited for its ally. The population of Botswana and Namibia only equal a total of 975,000 people.

In 1983, Lunar Base One is created on the Moon's surface. 30 astronauts work and live on the moon. Himmler declares it a glorious time for the Germanic Empire and that someday the entire solar system will be colonized and annexed by the Reich. In Britain, the BUF rule is stronger then ever. The people over time come to except fascist rule and do not want to repeat another atrocity. Brazil and Chili become member of the GAP in 1984, ending their 13 year occupation. The Zeiss Home Computer becomes very popular in Germany and Italy. By 1985, almost 35 percent of all families in Germany have one. The 20 megabyte hard drive is the largest ever created for the public. Germany outlaws gay marriage and people thought to be homosexual are to be sent to prison. Storm Thurmond in the United States declares this a step in the right direction for all human beings. He says he will work hand and hand with the Germanic Empire and that the United States has become a better nation under Nazi rule.


In Germany, Heinrich Himmler dies in 1985. There are rumors that he really died in 1983 and that the SS have been ruling the country for 2 years, however many of these rumors are discredited. Kurt Haldweim is named Fuhrer of Germany and begins his lifelong rule.

Appendix D- Germany

The Germanic Empire is the name given to Germany in this TL. It consists of the Germany, the Greater German Reich and then the colonies, occupied countries and protectorates of the Reich. Germany, Belgium, Greece, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Eastern Europe, Britain, etc. make up the GGR. The United States, Canada and France are occupied and were never officially annexed. India and parts of Africa have a protectorate status over them. Germany itself is the lands of lands of OTL Germany in 1939 plus Danzig, Poland, Lithuania, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, the former Czechoslovakia and Austria. The rest of the world is indirectly allied to the Germanic Empire. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland and Bulgaria are the biggest supporters of Germany.

Appendix E- Important People

Adolf Hitler, dies in 1958 – First Fuhrer
Heinrich Himmler, dies 1985 – Second Fuhrer
Hermann Goring, dies 1953
Storm Thurmond, leader of the American Nazi Party, dies 1994
Charles Lynton, leader of the British Union of Fascists, dies 2024
Kurt Haldweim, dies 2010 – Third Fuhrer

Appendix F- World Population as of 2010

Greater German Reich- 350,000,000
Germanic Empire, total size- 1,750,000,000
Japanese Empire- 725,000,000
United States – 135,000,000
Canada- 15,500,000
Mexico- 55,000,000
Other- 575,000,000

Part 3 plus better updated appendixs will be posted next. After the rough drafts are done, the final copy plus all the updated and fixed appendixs will be posted after that.

[robertp6165]

You do realize that this isn't an empiricial fact and only a theory from rightwingers?

I hate when people come dragging with their divine, flawless, obscure facts backed up by some even more obscure web-page and denouncing established theories with total confidence that this 'fact' is 100% right and everyone else is WRONG.

Well, I hate it when people, rather than providing their own facts which support their position, instead attack other posters for posting their own facts, regardless of how "divine, flawless, or obscure" they might be. If you disagree with what I posted, why don't you point out exactly how Roosevelt's policies shortened the Depression? The supposition that FDR saved America from the Depression is not an "established theory" except among left-wingers and neo-cons.

[Tom_B]

Multiple problems. There are 3 Sea Lion scenarios--the OTL almost variation, the early (Mackey) variation and the late (1941) variation.

They have something in common.

None of them can possibly succeeed. Only the Macksey variant is even remotely worth discussing. The late variant was discussed and thoroughly trashed on this Board a while back. Check the archives.

World War Two POD's are so incredibly simple:

AXIS LOSE

Tom

[Tetsu]

World War Two POD's are so incredibly simple:

AXIS LOSE

Tom

I don't agree with this at all. Sure, Operation Sealion may be implausible, but how can you say without a shadow of a doubt that it could never happen? Tons of things happened throughout history that people said never could. Why exactly do you feel that there is absolutely nothing that the Axis powers could have done to win the war? And don't give me any crap about United States' industrial might.

Interesting TL, FederationX.

[DMA]

The OTL Sealion had so many problems it's difficult to know where to start. But first there's simply the logistics of the operation. The Germans didn't have enough sailors to man all the ships & barges. Then there are the barges themselves which are designed for the Rhine River, not for crossing the English Channel. All you need is a large swell, not even a storm or anything, & the barges will begin to sink.

Then there is the RAF. It was far from defeated in 1940. Any attempt to this cross the Channel would have been met with, not just Fighter Command, but Bomber Command as well. Imagine 500 Wellington Bombers blowing the crap out of the barges as they cross the Channel. I'd estimate the Germans would suffer something like 50% casualties before one German stepped foot on a beach at Dover.

Then there's the RN. What do you think the RN is going to do? Sail away somewhere else & hide? You'd have well over 100 RN ships, from destroyers to battleships, blocking the Channel & there's little that the Kreigsmarine could do in order to stop the RN doing whatever it wanted.

Then finally there is the geography of the landing zones. The cliffs of Dover are akin to a huge wall which can't be breached. Further south, you don't have the large cliffs, but once again the ground here is perfect as you can get for defence. And this is besides the fact that you have the Martello Towers lined all the way from Dover to south of Hythe which, needless to say, would be used as the foundation stone of any British defence. And all this is despite the fact that the British had something like 6-8 divisions covering the area, whilst the German invasion force wasn't much different in size, yet was depleted in artillery & armour.

[Faeelin]

Well, I hate it when people, rather than providing their own facts which support their position, instead attack other posters for posting their own facts, regardless of how "divine, flawless, or obscure" they might be. If you disagree with what I posted, why don't you point out exactly how Roosevelt's policies shortened the Depression? The supposition that FDR saved America from the Depression is not an "established theory" except among left-wingers and neo-cons.

WTF? While I'll agree with you that there's an interesting paper to be written on the New Deal (though not for the reasons you said), I don't think anyone but morons and lunatics doesn't consider FDR to have been crucial for America.

[Valamyr]

FDR's new deal got the USA out of the depression. It IS the most established theory.

[FederationX]

Here are a few blocks of info that will be added to the timeline later on. Part 3 should be out soon and when its all done, I'll repost the entire thing in order, with all the appendixes included. I will add some more info to the appendixes and a few more are yet to be written, which will be out with the final edition.

Updated:

Appendix D- Germany

The Germanic Empire is the name given to Germany in this TL. It consists of Germany, the Greater German Reich and then the colonies, occupied countries and protectorates of the Reich. Germany, Belgium, Greece, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Eastern Europe, Britain, etc. make up the GGR. The United States, Canada and France are occupied and were never officially annexed. India and parts of Africa have a protectorate status over them. Germany itself is the lands of lands of OTL Germany in 1939 plus Danzig, Poland, Lithuania, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, the former Czechoslovakia and Austria. The rest of the world is indirectly allied to the Germanic Empire. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland and Bulgaria are the biggest supporters of Germany.

Official List of the Germanic Empire-

Germany consists of (OTL) – Germany, Poland, The Free City of Danzig, Lithuania, the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria and the Czech Republic.

The Greater German Reich consists of – Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom (excluding Northern Ireland) , Greece, Albania, India, Denmark, and Norway.

Occupied nations of the Germanic Empire: The United States, Canada and France

Colonies of the Germanic Empire: The Ukraine, the German territories in Africa, Iraq, Persia and the rest of the Middle East, Belorussia , Latvia/Estonia, and the rest of the Soviet Union (split up into Moscovy, Centralland and Siberia).

Allies of the Germanic Empire: Italy, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Japan, South Africa, Mexico, Cuba, the South American nations all belonging to GAP, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania.

New:

Appendix G- Second World War (Officially 1939-1944)

There are many changes in the World War 2 then in OTL. For one, the United States never enters. The United Kingdom loses hundreds of thousands troops in the Dunkirk Disaster. They also lose the Battle of Britain and the fight for North Africa. Winston Churchill takes control of the government with an iron fist in December 1941, a month after Operation Sealion. Another POD (Point of Divergence) is that the Germans are able to take Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad shortly after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Kursk falls in July of 1942 and the Germans are able to cross the Volga River in February of 1943. Japan is able to get the Dutch East Indies without a fight and the butterflies make sure they never commit suicide and declare war on the United States. While the British surrender in April of 1942, their military and colonial troops fight on until 1946, when India switches sides and surrenders to the Reich. North Africa fell in 1943. Russia never surrendered officially because their government collapsed in mid- 1942. All major resistance ended by 1945. Germany also accepted peace with ANZAC forces in 1943, returning to status-quo.
Appendix H- Third World War (Officially 1969-1970)

The United States went into this fight without a chance in hell. Germany and Japan surrounded it on both sides, with advanced missile technology. The United States Armed Forces was large, but greatly untested. The United States Army had a total number of 1,375,000 personal, the Marine Corps had 225,000, the Navy had 565,000 and the Air Force had 375,000 as of 1969. America lived in a dark world. It let its allies in Europe fall, one after after another until it was next. The United States used obsolete nuclear weapons and missiles. They were almost third rate compared to Germany's. The USA was shocked when Germany was able to land a man on the moon in 1958. America was barely able to launch a successful satellite in 1955. It was the last major power to test a nuclear weapon, three years after Japan in 1956. In the war, the U.S. Army fought in the Pacific, Mexico, Texas and New Mexico. The army and marine corps suffered terrible loses in the pacific, most notably, Hawaii and the Aleutian Island chain. The German invasion of Texas was only stopped through the use of nuclear weapons, on American soil. The Navy suffered loses in the Pacific and Atlantic theaters, however, the U.S. did win at Wake Island early in the war, destroying 3 Japanese aircraft carriers. The United States on a whole however, was not able to muster its strength because of the nuclear war. Canada easily went down America as well. Australia and New Zealand fought to the end to no avail and was forced to surrender after being invaded on the mainland. The war was quick and generally easy for the Axis, suffering minimal causalities. The OAN on the other hand was crushed.

Appendix I- The Germanic Colonial Ministry

The Germanic Colonial Ministry controls economic and living conditions in the German colonies and occupied countries. The food production in North America is under the direct control of the Colonial Ministry, as is the tea plantations in India, even though India enjoys the same status as the other nations of the GGR. Colonization of Africa and eastern Europe is stetted up by the ministry and all people's wishing to move to a colony must set up arrangements with the colonial authority's in that area. Encase of a problem where the German Armed Forces cannot help them, the Colonial Ministry is in control of a small Territorial Guard, which can protect it's personal in case of a problem. The Colonial Ministry answers to the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

[Michael E Johnson]

Interesting.I was hoping HT would put something like this in the book -but no luck-did you ever complete this?

[Kurt_Steiner]

Most current military analysts do not believe that Operation Sealion would have succeeded if undertaken. The main difficulty was the lack of German naval assets in comparison to those of the Royal Navy.

However, it should not be overlooked that the Royal Navy could not bring its 10:1 superiority against the Kriegsmarine to bear as most of the fleet was engaged on the Atlantic as well as Mediterranean. Despite this setback, the British Home Fleet still had a significant advantage in numbers compared to the German Fleet.

In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the war, which assumed that the Germans had total air superiority, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies to German troops in England, and they were then isolated and forced to surrender.

A mass invasion by sea however, may not have been necessary. In British wartime cabinet documents released in 1998, it was revealed that after the failure of the British Expeditionary Force in France and its evacuation at Dunkirk, Churchill had lost support in the cabinet and in Parliament. Had the Royal Air Force been defeated by the Luftwaffe, Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil.

[JHPier]

I thought Albania was occupied by Italy in 1939. How come the
Germans have it now? And with Yugoslavia apparently still in one piece shouldn't Greece be a purely Italian concern as well?

[Syphon]

However, I did like his 'Agent of Byzantium', so he's not a total disaster, but even that had flaws.

Sargon

Well Turtledove is suposed to have a doctorate in Byzantine history so he should get most of that right.

As for the rest of his literary endeavours lets just say that some of his stand alone books are entertaining but I was never able to get into any of the other series he wrote after the worldwar / colonisationseries.

david

[FederationX]

Interesting.I was hoping HT would put something like this in the book -but no luck-did you ever complete this?

I'm still working on parts of it. It should be finished within a week. It'll look nice, promoise! :D

[FederationX]

I thought Albania was occupied by Italy in 1939. How come the
Germans have it now? And with Yugoslavia apparently still in one piece shouldn't Greece be a purely Italian concern as well?

Your right my bad, thanks for pointing that one out. :) That'll get changed in my revisions.

[FederationX]

Most current military analysts do not believe that Operation Sealion would have succeeded if undertaken. The main difficulty was the lack of German naval assets in comparison to those of the Royal Navy.

However, it should not be overlooked that the Royal Navy could not bring its 10:1 superiority against the Kriegsmarine to bear as most of the fleet was engaged on the Atlantic as well as Mediterranean. Despite this setback, the British Home Fleet still had a significant advantage in numbers compared to the German Fleet.

In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the war, which assumed that the Germans had total air superiority, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies to German troops in England, and they were then isolated and forced to surrender.

A mass invasion by sea however, may not have been necessary. In British wartime cabinet documents released in 1998, it was revealed that after the failure of the British Expeditionary Force in France and its evacuation at Dunkirk, Churchill had lost support in the cabinet and in Parliament. Had the Royal Air Force been defeated by the Luftwaffe, Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil.

I have no faith in Sealion, myself. However I'm trying to think of the most plausable way to do it, even though in real life that wouldn't work either.
My final copy will have a lot more information and will look better as a whole. I can't get rid of Churchill, however because he was the PM during the invasion in the book. Good information on Sealion, thank you.

[Adam Parsons]

Germany tests their first nuclear bomb in 1947. Japan in 1953 and the United States 1956.

Um...I'm a little unclear as to why the Axis powers are able to develop nukes faster than the Americans. Did the Germans radically revise the math in their program and kill/capture most of the scientists who worked on Manhattan in OTL?

Also, what is the status of Italy? Is it integrated into the Reich, or does it still have its own independant empire?

Oh, and what does Japan control? I can easily see China, Eastern Siberia, and most of Southeast Asia. They get Australia and New Zealand too, right? Do they also get to share in the American and Canadian pies?

[jclark]

We seem to be beating this "Sea Lion must fail" concept to death here. While one might question the USA-Depression stuff, the result is a more isolationist US in TTL.
(1) A fair amount of the materials for the Brits & Soviets came through Lend-Lease and, with that supply cut-off the Germans may fare better than OTL in the Soviet Union.
(2) With no US-Japan Pacific War, the British may be more likely to make peace with Japan and thus Japan serves as more of a threat to the USSR than OTL. Either that or the Brits may be stretched more than than OTL.
(3) The defeat of the U-Boats was in part due to US aid leading to naval skermishes between the Germans & US. No US aid => no U-boat attacks on US shipping => Less US attacks on U-boats

Once you start seeing the interactions between these points, then a successful Sea Lion becomes more probable. I agree with those who think that Sea Lion couldn't work without some monumental POD -- I think that FDR dying at Zangara's hands could be it if it led to the chain of events mentioned in this POD. You still have the British Navy to deal with along with the Home Guard and the USSR. I just don't buy the "impossible" argument.

[DMA]

I have no faith in Sealion, myself. However I'm trying to think of the most plausable way to do it, even though in real life that wouldn't work either.
My final copy will have a lot more information and will look better as a whole. I can't get rid of Churchill, however because he was the PM during the invasion in the book. Good information on Sealion, thank you.


Sealion Scenario:

1) Completely scarp the OTL plans.

2) Restrict the Luffwaffe to south-east England. No going after London. Train several Stuka squadrons in anti-ship operations & ensure they have AP bombs.

3) Concentrate the Kreigsmarine in the Channel including U-Boats. Ensure Bismarck is fully operational (& Turpitz if possible).

4) Invade at the one location where the British don't expect it. In other words Ramsgate. The first priority is the port facilities. Use the barges only once. Thereafter use merchantmen & ferrys to move troops, equipment & supplies etc into the port.

5) Protect the convoys at all costs. Have U-Boats & mines block the southern entry to the Channel making it impossible for any RN attack. Station the capital ships of the Kriegsmarine to the north of the Channel backed up by the anti-shipping Stukas. All the while ensure that the entire area is protected by Luffwaffe fighters who are on constant patrols. The bombers conduct land support for the Herr.

6) After a few days build-up of the Herr, attack in two directions - one corps attacks towards Canterberry, whilst the other attacks along the coast to secure Deal (& its port) & then Dover. After this initial phase, teh second phase sees a two frontal assault towards London.

7) The most important battle, however, will take place at sea. Expect a major naval battle north-east of Ramsgate a few days day after the invasion. Flip a coin - heads Germans win, tails they lose. If they lose, the German invasion army is defeated (or forced to surrender) a week or so later due to lack of supplies. If the Germans win, Britian is probably defeated before the RN can put together another major force to make an effort to retake the Channel.

[robertp6165]

FDR's new deal got the USA out of the depression. It IS the most established theory.

America was STILL IN THE DEPRESSION in 1941 when it entered World War II. Unemployment in the United States never dropped below 14% during the entire time Roosevelt was in office, until the war started. And it only dropped to 14% one time during all those years...the rest of the time it was 18% or higher.

The New Deal had NOTHING to do with bringing America out of the Depression. The coming of World War II...which absorbed all the unemployed into the army while infusing massive amounts of money (in the form of war contracts) into the industrial sector...is what ended the Depression in the United States.

And there is a very compelling argument to be made that the New Deal actually did prolong the Depression. FDR raised taxes and imposed wage and price controls and other regulations on business which discouraged entrepreneurs for starting new businesses, discouraged existing businesses from hiring new workers, discouraged businesses from carrying out R&D, etc. FDR also subsidized farmers to encourage them not to produce food at a time when Americans were starving.

[FederationX]

Um...I'm a little unclear as to why the Axis powers are able to develop nukes faster than the Americans. Did the Germans radically revise the math in their program and kill/capture most of the scientists who worked on Manhattan in OTL?

Also, what is the status of Italy? Is it integrated into the Reich, or does it still have its own independant empire?

Oh, and what does Japan control? I can easily see China, Eastern Siberia, and most of Southeast Asia. They get Australia and New Zealand too, right? Do they also get to share in the American and Canadian pies?

I still don't have the specific details for the nuclear weapons yet. Since the United States is much weaker then OTL it just feels right for them to get this stuff later. In the final edition I create, which be out in a few days, there will be a lot more info on it.

I'll be posting an appendix tonight on the Japanese Empire. They control OTL China, Mongolia, Southeast Asia/Indochina, Austraila, New Zealand, everything in the Pacific, the Aleution Islands, Hawaii, parts of Eastern Siberia, Nepal and a few islands in the Indian Ocean.

Italy is independent and is an ally to the Germanic Empire. It controls Yogoslovia, Albania, parts of North Africa and Ethiopia and some other territories in Africa. Note: Yogoslovia and Albania are currently listed as apart of the Germanic Empire, so I'll have to change that.

To everyone: Part 3 will be out soon, including some more expanded and new appendixes. The full version with all the updates, data, appendixes and little changes will be posted in a about a week.

[robertp6165]

WTF? While I'll agree with you that there's an interesting paper to be written on the New Deal (though not for the reasons you said), I don't think anyone but morons and lunatics doesn't consider FDR to have been crucial for America.

FDR was "crucial" for America, but he didn't end the Depression. Sorry, but he didn't. World War II ended the Depression. To the extent that FDR can be said to have brought about American entry into World War II, then to that extent can he be said to have "ended the Depression." His New Deal policies, while extremely significant for later U.S. History because of the dramatic expansion of the federal goverment and it's influence on American society which they represented, never had an impact on the Depression, other than to possibly prolong it.

BTW, calling those who disagree with you "morons and lunatics" doesn't prove your point. Care to offer any facts that support your point? Or is that beyond your capacity?

[FederationX]

Sorry Robertp, but it's going to be hard to win this arguement. I believe FDR truly did help end the depression and he did a lot of good. But thats for another thread.

[robertp6165]

Sorry Robertp, but it's going to be hard to win this arguement. I believe FDR truly did help end the depression and he did a lot of good. But thats for another thread.

Well, you can of course believe what you will. If he helped to end the Depression, then the Depression would have been ended and not still going on when the war broke out.

And to the extent that your point of departure is based on FDR's impact on the Depression, then this thread is the place to discuss it. :)

[FederationX]

A little info:

Appendix J- The United States as of 2010

The United States in this world is a lot a different then in ours. As of 2010, it's occupied by the Germanic Empire. The total population reaches only 135 million and the Jews, Blacks, and Asians are all gone. (The Asian population were forcibly sent to the Empire of Japan, as citizens of the empire. ) Many of the major cities were nuked, killing tens of millions. Radiation damage is still very severe in some areas, including parts of southern Pennsylvania and the northern region of Texas and New Mexico. The destroyed cities were cleaned up by American slave workers when Germany took control. Pieces of the Liberty Bell were found and were sent back to Berlin. The Golden Gate Bridge was also excavated from the radioactive ruins of San Francisco and today is in a museum in Omaha, Nebraska. Omaha today has a population of 525,000 people and is the capital of the United States. After Washington D.C. as destroyed, Germany set up a new capital in Omaha, Nebraska, an area not affected by the nuclear war. The capital has a Presidential Palace, where the head of the American Nazi Party lives and works. There is a parliament building, with people elected by the ANP. There are a total of 250 seats and all of them are just puppets of the ANP, as the ANP is a puppet to Germany. There is a Foreign Ministry building which gets orders from Germany on what to do and an Occupation Ministry which is headed by the German Armed Forces. The flag of the United States has stayed the same, with 13 stripes and 50 stars on it, even though Hawaii belongs to Japan. There are close to 250,000 German occupation troops that act as the police force and deterrent against American resistance. They are stationed across the country, mainly in the big cities and around the capital. Strom Thurmond died in 1994 to a terrorist's bullet and was replaced by one of the American Parliament member's, David Duke. Duke is still in power as of 2010. All media in the United States is regulated by the United Germanic Televisor Commission, or UGTC. It is total censorship and only state controlled programs are aired. That also goes for the press. All magazines and TV shows are published and shown by either the ANP, the German controlled BBC (which has the best programing in the world, even for being state controlled, or the Aryan Press, or AP. Food rationing was once instated in the USA, but after Strom Thurmond's conservative policy on accepting the German rule and supporting the GGR policies, the rationing ended in 1990-1991. All products purchased in the USA are German made. The U.S. as of 2010, cannot purchase non-Germanic made goods. Many of the automobiles and airplanes are purchased from the GGR nation of the United Kingdom. Most people in the USA live pretty good lives considering they are occupied.

[tom]

Reminds me a little of GURPS Reich 5 timeline.

[FederationX]

Reminds me a little of GURPS Reich 5 timeline.

Is that good or bad?

[Adam Parsons]

I can't really see an American president willingly allowing a hostile foreign power to base their own military forces in Mexico. I was under the impression that Mexico, as well as a few other countries, are informally viewed as part of a "zone of security" around the United States. I think the only reason the Americans let Castro stay around was because they had made sure that he wasn't a threat. Here, the Nazis are basing troops in a country that actually shares a border with the United States. The only way that could succeed is by nuclear blackmail. Maybe.

Also, you might want to up the causalty figures for the postwar United States. With the amount of nukes going off and the amount of bombings on continental American targets, most of the transport infrastructure and agricultural regions will be ruined for at least a decade, and the "nuclear autumn" that will affect the United States will probably make matters worse.

I know this is how Turtledove wrote it, but I'm just wondering why Japan didn't try to annex a hunk of the United States, or at least wrangle "occupational command" from the Nazis. Once repaired, the cities will be quite useful, and the West coast would be a pretty pleasant piece of Japanese Lebensraum.

Are there any countries left that aren't Nazi/Japanese-controlled?

Finally, any speculation on Nazi genetics? Without the discredit of the field in the world caused by Nazi atrocities, eugenics will be very popular indeed. I was figuring that there might be some attempts to breed superior (or inferior for menial work) types of humans.

[MerryPrankster]

Sorry Robertp, but it's going to be hard to win this arguement. I believe FDR truly did help end the depression and he did a lot of good. But thats for another thread.

I don't think the New Deal ended the Depression, but New Deal programs certainly helped those who were hurt by it. He also helped blacks a lot, I believe, and they were the ones who REALLY got screwed (the whites threw them out of their menial jobs and they were ignored by charities).

[FederationX]

I can't really see an American president willingly allowing a hostile foreign power to base their own military forces in Mexico. I was under the impression that Mexico, as well as a few other countries, are informally viewed as part of a "zone of security" around the United States. I think the only reason the Americans let Castro stay around was because they had made sure that he wasn't a threat. Here, the Nazis are basing troops in a country that actually shares a border with the United States. The only way that could succeed is by nuclear blackmail. Maybe.

Also, you might want to up the causalty figures for the postwar United States. With the amount of nukes going off and the amount of bombings on continental American targets, most of the transport infrastructure and agricultural regions will be ruined for at least a decade, and the "nuclear autumn" that will affect the United States will probably make matters worse.

I know this is how Turtledove wrote it, but I'm just wondering why Japan didn't try to annex a hunk of the United States, or at least wrangle "occupational command" from the Nazis. Once repaired, the cities will be quite useful, and the West coast would be a pretty pleasant piece of Japanese Lebensraum.

Are there any countries left that aren't Nazi/Japanese-controlled?

Finally, any speculation on Nazi genetics? Without the discredit of the field in the world caused by Nazi atrocities, eugenics will be very popular indeed. I was figuring that there might be some attempts to breed superior (or inferior for menial work) types of humans.

My final timeline will deal with the German involvment in Mexico. I'm still thinking up some ideas on how its going to work(1). As for Japan not getting the western United States, they didn't want a war with Germany over it. Japan did not play a role in the grand defeat of America. Their main priority was Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines. Most of the Japanese forces in the war were bogged down in the pacific. They were lucky they even got Hawaii. Germany made sure they would get what they wanted.

The only nations not under German/Japanese direct control are the ones in South America. Brazil and Chilie have puppet governments, since they did openly support the United States and Canada during World War 3. The other countries in SA are apart of the GAP, an alliance controlled by Germany. They control their own government and foreign policy, but they do anything to please the Germanic Empire so they aren't victims of war, also. As for genetics, that kind of tested has not yet been experiamented with yet, but will be sometime in the mid-21st century.

[FederationX]

Part 3 coming soon, sorry for the delay.

[Adam Parsons]

More criticism again.

I would recommend against having Strom Thurmond being installed as the president of the American Reich. After all, there is a fundamental difference between disenfranchising blacks and shipping them to death camps, and Thurmond, though a racist, might not be willing to go that far. Also, the affair he had with his black maid might render him too "racially corruptable" (whatever that means) to be president.

Also, I'd just suggest calling the American Nazi Party something different, as people might be less willing to listen to "Nazis" than the "American Patriot Party" or "True American Party".

[FederationX]

Thank you for your comments. Thurmand is the chairman of the American Nazi Party, hence he is the "President" of the United States. I'm not sure if I will change the ANP name or not, only because if you're nuked and occupied, you'll listen to whoever is in charge. Part 3 this weekend, PROMISE!

[bekosh]

7) The most important battle, however, will take place at sea. Expect a major naval battle north-east of Ramsgate a few days day after the invasion. Flip a coin - heads Germans win, tails they lose. If they lose, the German invasion army is defeated (or forced to surrender) a week or so later due to lack of supplies. If the Germans win, Britian is probably defeated before the RN can put together another major force to make an effort to retake the Channel.


Of course a "win" for the German navy is 40% losses for the Brits, making them pull back and regroup for a week, and 90% losses for the Kreigsmarine.
Using Hearts of Iron to game this I landed enough troops in Britian to win but it cost me every german ship except a pair of destroyers.
This is a fight to the death for the Kreigsmarine just to delay the Royal Navy for a few days.

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Will Part 3 be coming at some point? Just asking.

[Bulldawg85]

Using Hearts of Iron to game this I landed enough troops in Britian to win but it cost me every german ship except a pair of destroyers.

I've played Hearts of Iron several times and every time that I did so I did not have very much difficulty with the RN. As soon as I took Paris the French surrendered and I went with the Vichy option, as in OTL. As soon as I could I took as the BEF out and did not allow a Dunkirk. Then I bounced across the channel. I did not go after Norway as this was a diversion from the main objective, so the Kriegsmarine could concentrate on the RN and Operation Sealion.

[Pax Britannia]

When I invaded Britain in HOI the RN just sat in the Irish sea and never made any attempt to stop me. That just goes to show how poor the AI can be.

[FederationX]

Well I sort of gave up on it a while ago, but I've been wanting to write a third part. I'd expect it within a few weeks.

[FederationX]

Here's a really quick map in the year 1985:

Blue: Minor nations

Grey: Germanic Empire

Green: Italian Empire

Yellow: Japanese Empire

Baige: German occupied

[Res Publica]

I'm just begun to read, In the Precence of Mine Enemies(so a havn't and I don't want to read your timeline for now). I know than in the begining when Alicia is in her classroom, there is a description of a WorldMap, where Britain was annexed to the Reich, but when Suzzana is in London, Britain has its custums, its currency(with the face of King Henry IX), so Britain didn't look as a territory than the Reich annexed, it look more like a puppet goverment than a part the Reich. Maybe is than i havn't finish the novel.

Can someone explain me that?

Res Publica
SPQR

[Tetsu]

I think I can. Britain was not a part of the GGR, the Greater German Reich, but rather the Germanic Empire, which consists of all lands occupied by the Third Reich. The GGR is just Germany, Poland, the Ukraine, and some other states. Britain was still under a Fascist government, but since it was part of the overall Germanic Empire and not the GGR, it was a bit more independant, culturally.

[Res Publica]

Thanks for your answer tetsu-katana.

But I don't think than the book make that difference, it only divides the world in to independent countries, occupied countries and the Greater German Riech, and in the Greater German Reich it includes the Reich and the colonies(Like those in Africa).Maybe that would come up in the book, as I said I havn't finish it.

Res Publica
SPQR

[hammo1j]

When UK goes under I would suggest colonies all declare independence. I cannot see why India would voluntarily place itself under Nazi rule. Possibly Canada is annexed by the USA voluntarily or not.

Always enjoy broad sweep TLs like this and yours is no exception. Look forward to some more.

[FederationX]

I felt like reposting my timeline based on Turtledove's book, [I]In the Presence of Mine Enemies[I]. I edited a few things, however I have to completely rewrite the World War Two part. It's unrealistic, I know. I didn't know at the time.:o Ill work on that sometime this week. Anyways, if you don't want any spoilers from the book, dont read this. I hope to add some more tables and charts, a section post-Himmler, rewrite WW2 and edit it to make it look cleaner and easier to read. For those of you who haven't read my timeline or have some suggestions that don't differ from the novel, please feel free to ask them. Thanks.
---------------------------------


Why Germany Won: Timeline of the Third Reich 1933-2010

1933 to 1936- President-elect Franklin Roosevelt is assassinated by Giuseppe Zangara on February 15th in Miami, Florida. Zangara is caught and tried for the murders of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Chicago mayer, Anton Cermak. He is executed in just 33 days later, death by the electric chair. On March 4th, Vice-President elect John Garner is inaugurated as President of the United States. Garner opposes the late Roosevelt's New Deal policy and keeps a status-quo approach to the depression. Over the next few years the economy sinks even lower. Unemployment hits an all time high of 37% percent in 1935 and rioting breaks out in many major cities across the country. Garner uses the United States Army to put down many of the riots, causing severe civil disorder. On April 5th, 1936, Garner is able to get Congress to ratify temporary martial law over the entire nation. Military governors are installed in the most troublesome states, including New York, Pennsylvania and California. All civilian courts are suspended until further notice and military tribunals are activated. Congress passes a bill enlarging the military to almost twice its size. The U.S. Army reaches a size of 400,000 men by the summer of 1936, many of them policing the nation. Rioting and looting becomes almost non-existent thanks to military occupation. In October of 1936, martial law is lifted and the elections of 1936 are to be taken place. Garner is renominated by the Democrats , almost by military force. The Republicans nominate Alfred Landon as President and promise to bring the nation back to normal. Their main platform is isolationism and fixing the economy. In November, John Garner and his running mate, Wendell Wilkie lose the election by a landslide. Garner is only able to win four states and loses the popular vote by almost 16 million votes.

1937 to 1940 – The United States is able to improve their economy with many of the principals of the late Franklin Roosevelt. Unemployment drops to 15 percent by 1939 and Landon is considered a hero to the American people. In September 1939, Nazi Germany invades Poland. The United Kingdom and France declare war on Germany, setting off the Second World War. President Landon promises to keep the United States out of European affairs and pushes for even greater isolationism. He vows that the economy is the number one goal for America and interfering in Europe will shatter the economy. In 1940 he wins the Presidential election by over 100 electoral votes, defeating his weak Democratic opponent Henry Wallace. In Europe, Germany defeats Poland, France, Holland, Luxembourg, Norway and Belgium. Germany, Italy and Japan sign the Tripartite Pact in September of 1940. In England, Winston Churchill becomes Prime Minister. From May to October 1940, Germany is able to destroy much of the Royal Air Force, winning the Battle of Britain. Denmark hands over Ireland and Greenland to the United States for they do not want the Nazis in control there. British troops are captured at the French port of Dunkirk. The British will to fight seems to lessen.

1941 to 1944 – With Germany's air victory against Britain, they begin Operation Sealion, the invasion of the United Kingdom. German air superiority is able to destroy much the Royal Navy, and the invasion begins in June of 1941. Britain fights with fury and protests for American help. President Landon declines and says he believes in strict neutrality. The Battle of London is fought in November of 1941.Germany uses glider craft to land some of their special forces into southern England. Erwin Rommel's Panzer divisions break the British defenses of the city and by January of 1942, all resistance ceases in the city. The Royal Family, Winston Churchill and much of the government are able to escape to Canada. A provisional government is set up in Leeds and surrenders in April. The British forces in North Africa fight on until 1943 until they lose to Erwin Rommel's Afrika Corps at the Battle of Cairo. By the end of 1946, many of the former British colonies and possessions are annexed into the Reich, including India. South Africa becomes an Aryan dominated union, allied to Germany. In 1944, Germany puts the British Union Fascists in charge of Britain. Northern Ireland is attached to Ireland and becomes an ally with Germany. Canada, Australia and New Zealand make a status-quo peace with the Axis.

In June 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union, breaking the non-aggression pact. German troops win the Battle of Moscow and the first Panzer IV enters the Kremlin compound. In January 1942, Stalin is found dead in the city. Leningrad is taken eight months later. German forces are able to defeat the unorganized Russian troops at Stalingrad and in January 1943 they take the city. The Russian government collapses and there is no formal surrender. Military resistance ends by 1945. Millions of civilians are murdered or sent to concentration camps. By the end of 1944 almost 35 million civilians have been killed (2) . The war in Europe ends. In the Pacific, the Dutch East Indies are peacefully handed over to Japan. Queen Wilhelmina does not wish to continue the fight. Japan is able to keep relations open with the United States and does not declare war. The Second World War ends in 1944 with Germany and Japan as the top dogs.

1945 to 1968 – Nazi Germany starts to rebuild Europe. The Greater German Reich annexes all of Poland into Germany itself. Bohemia-Moravia, Alsace-Lorraine, Danzig, Luxembourg and Lithuania are also directly annexed into the Third Reich. Estonia and Latvia are combined to form one country, under German occupation. The Ukraine and Belorussia become colonies of the Reich. France remains occupied and Britain becomes an official member of the Greater German Reich. Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Greece and Norway become members as well. Finland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Portugal, South Africa and Japan all become allies to Germany by 1955.
Greenland and Ireland remain protectorates of the United States. The United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Chili and Brazil create the Organization of Allied Nations or OAN. The United States tries to keep good relations with the Axis. Presidents Dewey and Stevenson keep open ties with all the nations of the Axis. In 1957, Japan annexes all of China after 20 years of fighting. Chiang Kai-Shek commits suicide in 1956, in the city of Chengdu.

Germany tests their first nuclear bomb in 1947. Japan follows in 1953 and the United States 1956. Hermann Goring dies in 1953 in a jet plane accident. In 1958, the Germans land a man on the moon, just 9 years after launching their first satellite. Adolf Hitler dies in 1958 of a liver aliment and is replaced by Heinrich Himmler. Italy and Germany commit genocide in the Middle East, killing off more then the 80 percent of the total population. The population of the former Soviet Union drop to 30 million and the German government opens it to colonization. Himmler calls upon the German people that North America has a “Jewish Problem.” The United States does not back down to Germany and declares the Reich to be a nation of racists. Himmler says in a speech to the Reichstag in 1963 that the United States and Canada will one day be liberated from the Jew someday. Mexico allows a German defense force to enter the country. Mexico cited the American people were aggressive and would one day invade again. By 1965 over 175,000 German troops have entered Mexico. President Humphrey (1961-1965) appeases to the German government and lets this defense force enter Mexico. Relations between the United States and Germany become strained. In 1967, the two nations have very little diplomatic contact. In December of 1968, Germany accuses the United States of violating its airspace over Scotland. President Henry Cabot Lodge (1965-1970) denounces these claims and mobilizes the armed forces. On January 4th, 1969 , Germany (and its allies) and Japan declare war on the United States and the rest of the OAN.

1969 to 1970 –

1969 - The Third World War started out non-nuclear. Japan bombs Hawaii and begins an invasion of the Philippines. The U.S. Pacific Fleet holds its own in the South Pacific and counterattacks near Taiwan. The Luftwaffe begins bombing runs over Alaska and British Columbia, killing thousands. German troops make a thrust up through Texas and New Mexico with over 375,000 troops stationed in Mexico. V-6 rockets bombard American cities on the East Coast, killing tens of thousands. Germany and Japan demand a surrender from the USA, but they refuse. In September, Japan wins at the Battle of the Coral Sea, destroying 6 American aircraft carriers and 3 battleships. Japan then begins an invasion of Australia. The following month, the Philippines and Guam fall to Japan, while Iceland is captured by Germany in the Atlantic. German troops are halted near Lubbock, Texas with tactical nuclear weapons. Germany relates with the nuclear bombing of Boston. A three megaton nuclear bomb hits the city, killing almost everyone in it. On December 7th, 1969, Japan captures Midway and Wake Island. U.S forces in the Pacific fall back to Hawaii, mustering up their defenses. On December 28th, the Aleutian Islands U.S. Marine garrison surrenders after a two month conflict on the islands.

1970 – In March, the new V-7 rocket comes into service. The first one ever is launched from Munich, Germany, heading towards Toronto, Canada. It is armed with a one megaton nuclear warhead. Toronto is destroyed in a massive nuclear fireball and the next day the Canadian government revokes its membership in the OAN and surrenders to Germany.

The United States counterattacks into Mexico and reaches Mexico City in May. The U.S. wins the Battle of Mexico City. Over 300,000 Mexicans die, compared to only 25,000 Americans. In retaliation, Germany nukes Atlanta and Pittsburgh. The United States in return launches its obsolete nuclear missiles towards Mexico and Germany. The missiles heading towards Mexico are successful, killing over 30 million people. However, the missiles going towards Germany are all stopped. In the Pacific, Japan invades Hawaii. Honolulu and Hilo are taken within only a few weeks. In June, Australia and New Zealand surrender to Japan, after Sydney and Auckland fall to Japanese forces.

Germany offers the United States one more chance to surrender, however, they due not. Germany launches nuclear missiles towards the continental USA. Washington D.C. , Philadelphia, Hartford, San Francisco, Seattle, Houston, Miami, Detroit, Nashville and Denver vanish from the earth. Germany also targets military installations and outposts, destroying the American power to fight. On August 13th, 1970, the United States of America surrenders to the Greater German Reich, its allies and the Empire of Japan. Heinrich Himmler declares a day of celebration across the Reich and has fighter jets fly over Berlin and New York. The American territories in the Pacific and Hawaii are annexed by Japan. The rest of the United States and Canada become occupied nations, under German rule.
Hundreds of thousands of German troops occupy the United States. New York, Los Angeles, St. Louis and Chicago are targeted first for cleanup of the Jews and Blacks. Millions of people are rounded up and put into ghettos. People rat out their Jewish and Slavic neighbors in return for not being sent to the internment camps. Japanese Americans are deported to Japan, while the American Native American peoples are killed right on the spot. The new American puppet government is set up in Omaha, Nebraska. A new capitol building, occupation headquarters and a palace for the Fuhrer start to get built under German orders. The United States Armed Forces are officially disbanded and the new “Germanic Empire” sets up military bases across the nation. The United States keeps its name and territory, but nothing else. The constitution and all legal documents are now defunct and a new set of laws are written. The Liberty Bell in Philadelphia is found in the rubble of the city and is dug up by American prisoners. It is then flown back to Berlin. Australia and New Zealand are annexed by Japan.

Germany and its allies are now the rulers of the world. A new dark world has been forged from a once democratic and peace loving one.


1971 to 1985 – Heinrich Himmler is now ruler of the world, along with the rest of Germany. In 1971, Himmler sets up a colonial office in North America which is used to exploit the cattle herds of the Great Planes, the oil in Alaska and the tobacco fields of the American South. The Germanic Colonial Ministry now controls not just Eastern Europe, Africa, or India but also North America and parts of South America. After all of the purges in the United States and Canada, the population drops to 112 million in the USA and just over 10 million in Canada. In 1972, the American Nazi Party is formed, headed by Storm Thurmand. The black population drops to three percent of its original size. The German government starts to rebuild Mexico right after the war. The Mexican population drops to a staggering 35 million people by 1972. A puppet government is set up in Chilpancingo, Guerrero and asks for German help rebuilding its economy and cities. Germany agrees and sends huge amounts of monetary aid. The Mexican peso is now worth nothing, so Germany sends them Reichmarks to help bolster up the economy. In South America, Brazil and Chili become occupied. The rest of the continent joins the GAP, the Germanic Alliance for Peace.

In 1973, a Jewish uprising occurs in Moscow. Whats left of the secret Jewish population in Europe strikes in Moscow, killing thousands of new German colonists. A four week battle occurs between Jewish partisans and the SS Waffen. Most of the Jews die in the struggle, while the rest are killed in work camps in Siberia. The incident becomes will known across the world and much and many people furiously accept it. The United States public protests the genocide and pays dearly for it. Himmler bombs Chicago, killing thousands. Over 750,000 more people are killed by German occupation forces for treason. The American puppet government in Omaha, Nebraska, headed by Strom Thurmond, calls for peace across the occupied nation and demands an end to the protests. Within just days, the populace of the United States returns to normal. New military bases are set up in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and Omaha to act as a deterrent against future rebellions.

In 1975, British partisans bomb the BUF headquarters in London, killing many high up personal in the British government. This causes riots across Britain. People loot and pillage and refuse to purchase German made goods. A military base is taken over by English citizens after being bombed numerous times. An entire Panzer brigade is captured and used to attack other German bases. London is finally taken over by the English rebels and demands for Germany to go home. Germany refuses the ultimatum and lands troops in Dover. Week long battles are fought in southern England between the German Army and the rebels. By the end of December of 1975, London is retaken. Almost half a million German troops are then sent to occupy the nation once more. Much of London is destroyed for second time and must be rebuilt once again. A new British Union of Fascists party is formed and is directly influenced by Germany Proper.

The last half of the 1970s end somewhat peacefully. Heinrich Himmler declares that he will uphold Nazi Doctrine and party policy will remain the same as it was in Adolf Hitler's day. He decrees that France shall remain occupied and that it shall not be admitted into the Greater German Reich (GGR) . In 1978, India is admitted into the GGR as a separate nation. Indian leaders call this a step in the right direction and that they are thankful for the rights given to them as a member of the GGR. Himmler says that India is more valuable as a member of the Reich then as a colony of the Germanic Empire. However, the Colonial Ministry continues to control their economic life. In Japan, Australia and New Zealand become protectorates in 1979, ending their 8 year occupation. A new ANZAC is created to defend both nations. The new ANZAC is limited to 100,000 men and will also have two Japanese infantry divisions and one armored division attached to it. Most of the Japanese occupations go home and let the Aussies defend themselves. However, the Head of State of both Australia and New Zealand is Japanese. Back in Europe, Finland is awarded the former Russian provinces of Karelia and Murmansk by the GGR. Himmler decrees that these lands are of Finnish descent and should be united with the National Socialist Republic of Finland.

In 1980, Czech protesters wave the Czechoslovakian flag in Prague. They decree that they want protectorate status in the GGR. Himmler says no and crushes the rallies in the city. Hundreds are executed for treason and thousands more are sent to work camps. In Africa, the Germanic territories of OTL Botswana and Namibia are annexed by the Union of South Africa. Germany believes that these lands are better suited for its ally. The population of Botswana and Namibia only equal a total of 975,000 people.

In 1983, Lunar Base One is created on the Moon's surface. 30 astronauts work and live on the moon. Himmler declares it a glorious time for the Germanic Empire and that someday the entire solar system will be colonized and annexed by the Reich. In Britain, the BUF rule is stronger then ever. The people over time come to except fascist rule and do not want to repeat another atrocity. Brazil and Chili become member of the GAP in 1984, ending their 13 year occupation. The Zeiss Home Computer becomes very popular in Germany and Italy. By 1985, almost 35 percent of all families in Germany have one. The 20 megabyte hard drive is the largest ever created for the public. Germany outlaws gay marriage and people thought to be homosexual are to be sent to prison. Storm Thurmond in the United States declares this a step in the right direction for all human beings. He says he will work hand and hand with the Germanic Empire and that the United States has become a better nation under Nazi rule.


In Germany, Heinrich Himmler dies in 1985. There are rumors that he really died in 1983 and that the SS have been ruling the country for 2 years, however many of these rumors are discredited. Kurt Haldweim is named Fuhrer of Germany and begins his lifelong rule.


Appendix A – The Holocaust

The Holocaust is very similar in this timeline, however over 12 million European Jews are killed, instead of 6 million. Over 100 million Russians have also been killed and the Slavic population of Europe is now gone. Many either died or went to work camps in Siberia. The former Soviet Union is now a colony of the Germanic Empire. In the Middle East, the Italian government was forced to commit genocide. Only about ten percent of the of the original population in the middle east is still alive. It is occupied and and exploited by both the Germanic Empire and the Italian Empire. Oil is being taken twice as fast then in OTL. In Africa, only around 100 million blacks and Arabs exist. South Africa had a population of 30 million Whites and 1 million Blacks as of 2010. Colonization of the continent began in 1977, after the final purge in Nigeria. In China, the population is only around 475 million people as of 2010. Japan killed much of the population off in the Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1957. Mongolia is also under control of Japan, and is used for colonization of the mainland for Japanese citizens. Over 40 million American and Canadian civilians were killed in the Holocaust, either being from Slavic or African origins. As of 2010, the world population is only around 3 and half billion people.


Appendix B- The Third War Causality (dead, no wounded count at this time)

Military Civilian Holocaust Victims
United States 545,000 42,000,000 36,975,000
Germany 475,000 35,000 N/A
Japan 295,000 160,000 N/A
Canada 140,000 3,750,000 5,450,000
Axis Allies 875,000 35,500,000 N/A
OAN 1,175,000 18,000,000 25,000,000
Total 3,720,000 99,445,000 67,425,000

*Note – Under the Axis killed list, many of those are the Mexican population, as they were decimated by American nuclear weapons near the end of the war.

Appendix C – List of Presidents of the United States of America

John Garner 1933-1937 Democrat
Alfred Landon 1937-1945 Republican
Thomas Dewey 1945-1949 Republican
Adlai Stevenson 1949-1957 Democrat
Harry Byrd 1957-1961 Republican
Hubert Humphrey 1961-1965 Democrat
Henry Lodge 1965-1970 Republican



Appendix D- Germany

The Germanic Empire is the name given to Germany in this TL. It consists of Germany, the Greater German Reich and then the colonies, occupied countries and protectorates of the Reich. Germany, Belgium, Greece, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Eastern Europe, Britain, etc. make up the GGR. The United States, Canada and France are occupied and were never officially annexed. India and parts of Africa have a protectorate status over them. Germany itself is the lands of lands of OTL Germany in 1939 plus Danzig, Poland, Lithuania, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, the former Czechoslovakia and Austria. The rest of the world is indirectly allied to the Germanic Empire. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland and Bulgaria are the biggest supporters of Germany.

Official List of the Germanic Empire-

Germany consists of (OTL) – Germany, Poland, The Free City of Danzig, Lithuania, the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria and the Czech Republic.

The Greater German Reich consists of – Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom (excluding Northern Ireland) , Greece, Albania, India, Denmark, and Norway.

Occupied nations of the Germanic Empire: The United States, Canada and France

Colonies of the Germanic Empire: The Ukraine, the German territories in Africa, Iraq, Persia and the rest of the Middle East, Belorussia , Latvia/Estonia, and the rest of the Soviet Union (split up into Moscovy, Centralland and Siberia).

Allies of the Germanic Empire: Italy, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Japan, South Africa, Mexico, Cuba, the South American nations all belonging to GAP, Turkey, Croatia (which consists of OTL Croatia, Bosnia and a rump northern Serbia Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania.


Appendix E- Important People

Adolf Hitler, dies in 1958 – First Fuhrer
Heinrich Himmler, dies 1985 – Second Fuhrer
Kurt Haldweim, dies 2010 – Third Fuhre
Hermann Goring, dies 1953 in an airplane crash (no foul play)
Reinhard Hydrech- Assassinated in 1958 by Heinrich Himmler's forces
Strom Thurmond, leader of the American Nazi Party, dies 1994
Charles Lynton, leader of the British Union of Fascists, dies 2024 (OTL Tony Blair)


Appendix F- World Population as of 2010

Greater German Reich- 350,000,000
Germanic Empire, total size- 1,750,000,000
Japanese Empire- 725,000,000
United States – 135,000,000 (apart of the Germanic Empire)
Canada- 15,500,000 (apart of the Germanic Empire)
Mexico- 55,000,000
Other- 575,000,000


Appendix G- Second World War (Officially 1939-1944)

There are many changes in the World War 2 then in OTL. For one, the United States never enters. The United Kingdom loses hundreds of thousands troops in the Dunkirk Disaster. They also lose the Battle of Britain and the fight for North Africa. Winston Churchill takes control of the government with an iron fist in December 1941, a month after Operation Sealion. Another POD (Point of Divergence) is that the Germans are able to take Moscow and Leningrad shortly after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Kursk falls in July of 1942 and the Germans are able to cross the Volga River in October of 1942. Japan is able to get the Dutch East Indies without a fight and the butterflies make sure they never commit suicide and declare war on the United States. While the British surrender in April of 1942, their military and colonial troops fight on until 1946, when India switches sides and surrenders to the Reich. North Africa fell in 1943. Russia never surrendered officially because their government collapsed in mid- 1943. All major resistance ended by 1948. Germany also accepted peace with ANZAC forces in 1943, returning to status-quo.

Appendix H- Third World War (Officially 1969-1970)

The United States went into this fight without a chance in hell. Germany and Japan surrounded it on both sides, with advanced missile technology. The United States Armed Forces was large, but greatly untested. The United States Army had a total number of 1,375,000 personal, the Marine Corps had 225,000, the Navy had 565,000 and the Air Force had 375,000 as of 1969. America lived in a dark world. It let its allies in Europe fall, one after after another until it was next. The United States used obsolete nuclear weapons and missiles. They were almost third rate compared to Germany's. The USA was shocked when Germany was able to land a man on the moon in 1958. America was barely able to launch a successful satellite in 1955. It was the last major power to test a nuclear weapon, three years after Japan in 1956. In the war, the U.S. Army fought in the Pacific, Mexico, Texas and New Mexico. The army and marine corps suffered terrible loses in the pacific, most notably, Hawaii and the Aleutian Island chain. The German invasion of Texas was only stopped through the use of nuclear weapons, on American soil. The Navy suffered loses in the Pacific and Atlantic theaters, however, the U.S. did win at Wake Island early in the war, destroying 3 Japanese aircraft carriers. The United States on a whole however, was not able to muster its strength because of the nuclear war. Canada easily went down America as well. Australia and New Zealand fought to the end to no avail and was forced to surrender after being invaded on the mainland. The war was quick and generally easy for the Axis, suffering minimal causalities. The OAN on the other hand was crushed.

Appendix I- The Germanic Colonial Ministry

The Germanic Colonial Ministry controls economic and living conditions in the German colonies and occupied countries. The food production in North America is under the direct control of the Colonial Ministry, as is the tea plantations in India, even though India enjoys the same status as the other nations of the GGR. Colonization of Africa and eastern Europe is stetted up by the ministry and all people's wishing to move to a colony must set up arrangements with the colonial authority's in that area. Incase of a problem where the German Armed Forces cannot help them, the Colonial Ministry is in control of a small Territorial Guard, which can protect it's personal in case of a problem. The Colonial Ministry answers to the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

Appendix J- The United States as of 2010

The United States in this world is a lot a different then in ours. As of 2010, it's occupied by the Germanic Empire. The total population reaches only 135 million and the Jews, Blacks, and Asians are all gone. (The Asian population were forcibly sent to the Empire of Japan, as citizens of the empire. ) Many of the major cities were nuked, killing tens of millions. Radiation damage is still very severe in some areas, including parts of southern Pennsylvania and the northern region of Texas and New Mexico. The destroyed cities were cleaned up by American slave workers when Germany took control. Pieces of the Liberty Bell were found and were sent back to Berlin. The Golden Gate Bridge was also excavated from the radioactive ruins of San Francisco and today is in a museum in Omaha, Nebraska. Omaha today has a population of 525,000 people and is the capital of the United States. After Washington D.C. as destroyed, Germany set up a new capital in Omaha, Nebraska, an area not affected by the nuclear war. The capital has a Presidential Palace, where the head of the American Nazi Party lives and works. There is a parliament building, with people elected by the ANP. There are a total of 250 seats and all of them are just puppets of the ANP, as the ANP is a puppet to Germany. There is a Foreign Ministry building which gets orders from Germany on what to do and an Occupation Ministry which is headed by the German Armed Forces. The flag of the United States has stayed the same, with 13 stripes and 50 stars on it, even though Hawaii belongs to Japan. There are close to 250,000 German occupation troops that act as the police force and deterrent against American resistance. They are stationed across the country, mainly in the big cities and around the capital. Strom Thurmond died in 1994 to a terrorist's bullet and was replaced by one of the American Parliament member's, David Duke. Duke is still in power as of 2010. All media in the United States is regulated by the United Germanic Televisor Commission, or UGTC. It is total censorship and only state controlled programs are aired. That also goes for the press. All magazines and TV shows are published and shown by either the ANP, the German controlled BBC (which has the best programing in the world, even for being state controlled, or the Aryan Press, or AP. Food rationing was once instated in the USA, but after Strom Thurmond's conservative policy on accepting the German rule and supporting the GGR policies, the rationing ended in 1990-1991. All products purchased in the USA are German made. The U.S. as of 2010, cannot purchase non-Germanic made goods. Many of the automobiles and airplanes are purchased from the GGR nation of the United Kingdom. Most people in the USA live pretty good lives considering they are occupied.

Appendix K- Military Strength of Most Major Countries in 1969 (troops)

Army Navy Air Force National

Germany 8,500,000 2,250,000 2,500,000 5,000,000
Japan 3,000,000 1,250,000 975,000 2,750,000
USA 5,500,000 1,800,000 1,675,000 2,950,000
Italy 1,500,000 725,000 525,000 1,100,000
Canada 275,000 225,000 100,000 500,000
Axis Allies 7,000,000 1,250,000 1,500,000 2,500,000
OAN 3,750,000 1,500,000 2,250,000 1,650,000

[Pax Britannia]

I thought that in the book Britain was part of the GGR

[FederationX]

I thought that in the book Britain was part of the GGR

I included that.

[Wendell]

Harry Byrd as a Democrat....

[FederationX]

Harry Byrd as a Democrat....

Just butterflies. In real life he did a few things that were considered "opposing Democrats".

[Wendell]

Just butterflies. In real life he did a few things that were considered "opposing Democrats".
Well, so has virtually every President...

[FederationX]

Well, so has virtually every President...

Well having him a Republican isn't a big deal.

Wendell Wilkie was a Democrat until 1939 and he ran as a Republican in 1940.

[Wendell]

Well having him a Republican isn't a big deal.

Wendell Wilkie was a Democrat until 1939 and he ran as a Republican in 1940.
Because something happened that made him want to change parties...There was a spark. Where is Byrd's spark?

[FederationX]

Because something happened that made him want to change parties...There was a spark. Where is Byrd's spark?

I'm sure something could happen. After all, Germany crushed Britain and Russia in this timeline. The United States is totally isolasionist.

As for Wilkie, the reason he switched sides was more because he opposed The New Deal and because he thought the USA was underprepared for a world war. He was very liberal, however. He believed in civil rights and he supported FDR and the Democrats until his death in '44. One of the reasons he wasn't nominated by the Republicans in 1944 was because he was too liberal/progressive.

[Wendell]

I'm sure something could happen. After all, Germany crushed Britain and Russia in this timeline. The United States is totally isolasionist.

As for Wilkie, the reason he switched sides was more because he opposed The New Deal and because he thought the USA was underprepared for a world war. He was very liberal, however. He believed in civil rights and he supported FDR and the Democrats until his death in '44. One of the reasons he wasn't nominated by the Republicans in 1944 was because he was too liberal/progressive.
I knew why Wilkie changed, but my question pertained to Byrd.

[FederationX]

I knew why Wilkie changed, but my question pertained to Byrd.

And I answered it. Butterflies more or less. Pretend there was a scandal in the Deomcratic Party.:rolleyes: If Wilkie can change that easily, Byrd could the same thing.

The Democrats and Republicans are too similar in my timeline, at least after World War Two.

[Michael E Johnson]

Are you going to add more to this tl-its really interesting.

[Kurt_Steiner]

I hope so...

[Max Sinister]

Errr...

"Garner loses the popular vote by almost 16 million votes" - isn't that a bit much, given the smaller US population? How much would that be in percentages?

Why does Landon implement FDR's ideas? He seems to me like the anti-FDR.

"Denmark hands over Ireland" - Iceland, please.

Oh-oh... successful Sealion...

35 million murders in three years?!

Humphrey lets Germans enter Mexico?!? Lost his mind? Monroe's rolling in his grave.

Purges in the US? Even if the kill every non-Aryan, and all political opposers... that's madness.

There are secret Jews in Moscow, and they organize an uprising?!?

Why doesn't Germany give Botswana, Karelia and so on earlier away?

Why don't they outlaw homosexuals earlier in the US? And what marriage? It sounds as if TTL US had had gay marriage before the nazis.

"Golden Gate Bridge was also excavated from the radioactive ruins of San Francisco and today is in a museum in Omaha, Nebraska." Yes, I try to imagine... a mile-long bridge, of course...

Sorry, but it's naziwank. And not even halfway believable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Errr...


Sorry, but it's naziwank. And not even halfway believable.

Presence of Mine Enemies is one of Turtledove's more ASB novels. I'd assume it was more to say that Germany would slowly liberalize and decline even if it did somehow achieve world dominance. It's not a real attempt to get a Nazi win, per say.

For example, Nazi nuclear superiority? The germans, even with OTL accelerated nuclear research, never got anywhere near nukes. In fact, judging by what was revealed post-war, many of the scientists considered an atomic bomb militarily impossible. If anyone should have atomic superiority, it would be the US.


But like I said, the book isn't supposed to be halfway believable in getting to the scene, only in the plot's execution.

[thejester]

I don't agree with this at all. Sure, Operation Sealion may be implausible, but how can you say without a shadow of a doubt that it could never happen? Tons of things happened throughout history that people said never could. Why exactly do you feel that there is absolutely nothing that the Axis powers could have done to win the war? And don't give me any crap about United States' industrial might.

Interesting TL, FederationX.

Because Sealion was so absurdly implausible? Yeah, it could have worked if every man in the Royal Navy had a simultaneous heart attack, but that's about it. This TL simply has the Luftwaffe 'winning', despite the fact they were never close, and the Luftwaffe destroying much of the RN, despite the fact they had an abysmal anti-shipping capability at night - and the RN had more than enough ships concentrated locally to be able to hit the invasion flotillas as they were making the crossing at night.

The Germans winning the 'Battle of Moscow' is an equally big joke. Given that they couldn't win in Stalingrad in summer, how do you figure they can do it in winter at the end of an even longer supply line against stronger Soviet opposition?

I'm just begun to read, In the Precence of Mine Enemies(so a havn't and I don't want to read your timeline for now). I know than in the begining when Alicia is in her classroom, there is a description of a WorldMap, where Britain was annexed to the Reich, but when Suzzana is in London, Britain has its custums, its currency(with the face of King Henry IX), so Britain didn't look as a territory than the Reich annexed, it look more like a puppet goverment than a part the Reich. Maybe is than i havn't finish the novel.

Can someone explain me that?


If Turtledove can't string together half-plausible TLs, why should he bother with internal consistancy? ;)

[David bar Elias]

I'm wondering if the universe of In the Presence of Mine Enemies is the same as Turtledove's short story The Last Article--which had Field Marshall Model leading the Germans into New Dehli, and then crushing a non-violent resistance campaign led by Ghandi and Nehru. It took place c.1947 or '48 (can't remember)....and it specifically mentioned Britain surrendering in 1941 (probably simply means the last organized resistance that held on in north England and Scotland, I suppose).

It also mentioned a US-German proxy war in sub-Saharan Africa between the Free and Vichy French, and Japan's aquisition of Siberia and the rest of China.

It certainly would be useful background info to that novel, if it's true...

[Michael E Johnson]

I'm wondering if the universe of In the Presence of Mine Enemies is the same as Turtledove's short story The Last Article

It certainly would be useful background info to that novel, if it's true...

To the best of my knowledge they are 2 different universes. In IPME the Nazis left Asia-save Russia-to Japan. The Nazis conquered Europe,the Middle East and Africa and then in the 1970's moved on North and South America.

[Max Sinister]

You know, I'm still astonished why so many people are fascinated by naziwanks.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Perhaps because there are no worse baddies, so to speak?

[Susano]

You know, I'm still astonished why so many people are fascinated by naziwanks.

For the same reason why AH is fascinating in general: It would be something different. And you can bet that the Nazis would have done lunatic things if they had won. Bad things mostly, but radical different to OTL.

[Michael E Johnson]

You know, I'm still astonished why so many people are fascinated by naziwanks.


Personally I'm more interested in the CSA ones because they had a better shot at winning . But its probably related to people slowing down to watch a traffic accident-the desire to see how bad bad can get.

[Max Sinister]

Yep, that's an explanation.

[Wendell]

And I answered it. Butterflies more or less. Pretend there was a scandal in the Deomcratic Party.:rolleyes: If Wilkie can change that easily, Byrd could the same thing.

The Democrats and Republicans are too similar in my timeline, at least after World War Two.

Byrd was a seasoned politician. Republicans were not well liked in the South for much of his life. Willkie had no serious political experience when he sought the White House.

[Bavarian Raven]

...the reason so many are interested in world war two, is that how close the allies came to loosing...and then thinking, "What would have happened if we had lost?"

[Wendell]

There are also several different ways in which one could take a Nazi victory TL.

[David bar Elias]

To the best of my knowledge they are 2 different universes. In IPME the Nazis left Asia-save Russia-to Japan. The Nazis conquered Europe,the Middle East and Africa and then in the 1970's moved on North and South America.

Well, the map in IPME mentions the Reich in India, so the two universes would fit together.

However, Turtledove has refused to confirm or deny if they are, in fact, in the same universe.