AHC: Emperor of Italy from House Habsburg

[Kronistry]

As for Italians hating Habsburgs, they hated them because Habsburgs were obstacle to Italian unification. If there is united Italy, would they still hate them?

Yeah probably actually. A Habsburg could be king of Italy (very, very unlikely) but he would have to be completely Independent from Vienna and have international support (France could support that against Nice and Savoy like OTL). However if Austria keeps territories considered as Italian by nationalists (Venetia, Lombardia or even the Tyrol or the northern Dalmatian coast) then the Habsburg italian King ITTL could be hated and finish exiled or killed and replaced by someone. To sum this up, this scenario is near ASB IMO.

Could different policy towards the Italians in Habsburg empire lead to them liking Austrian dynasty more?

I don't think so. To see this scenario happen, you'll have to make nationalism an unimportant ideology. The Italians hated the Habsburg because they were their former masters. It's the same with the Polish and Russia for example. The Polish population hated (and still hates) Russians because they oppressed them for 2 centuries and a half.

 

[vn6]

Yeah probably actually. A Habsburg could be king of Italy (very, very unlikely) but he would have to be completely Independent from Vienna and have international support (France could support that against Nice and Savoy like OTL). However if Austria keeps territories considered as Italian by nationalists (Venetia, Lombardia or even the Tyrol or the northern Dalmatian coast) then the Habsburg italian King ITTL could be hated and finish exiled or killed and replaced by someone. To sum this up, this scenario is near ASB IMO.

I don't think so. To see this scenario happen, you'll have to make nationalism an unimportant ideology. The Italians hated the Habsburg because they were their former masters. It's the same with the Polish and Russia for example. The Polish population hated (and still hates) Russians because they oppressed them for 2 centuries and a half.

I know this scenario is not very probable but I don't think Habsburg emperor couldn't rule Italy. He could rule Hungary and Hungarians were fine without independent king, as a part of larger monarchy.

As for Poland, I'm living there and yes, Russia is hated (especially now when it attacked Ukraine but before that too). On the other hand, I think Congress Poland could work if the constitution was actually respected. Later Polish-Russian relations went downhill from there as Russians increased opression.

On the other hand, Habsburgs are remembered somewhat more positively because they treated Poles better than Russia/Germany in second half of 19th century. So better treatment does matter despite nationalism.

 

[Evil Crusader]

It is very weird that Habsburgs didn't consider to treat them better. Could have saved themselves very rich province.

They didn't treat the Hungarians much better, it just so happened that parts of Italy managed to unite and strike back while Hungary was caught between the Habsburgs and a benevolent Russia when push came to shove.

 

[vn6]

They didn't treat the Hungarians much better, it just so happened that parts of Italy managed to unite and strike back while Hungary was caught between the Habsburgs and a benevolent Russia when push came to shove.

True. Only after Ausgleich other nationalities got more autonomy; I wonder what the empire would look like if Habsburgs treated Hungarians and Italians as well as others better from the start. Despite the state being absolutist they could at least e.g. give Italians access to higher posts in government.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

I know that OTL Austria was more interested in Germany but I'm talking about change in priorities . Austrians decide that with Prussia unification of Germany is impossible and start looking south. After Congress of Vienna Italy had comparable GDP to Germany (minus Austria) so getting domination there wouldn't be worse than in Germany.

It would be an unacceptable and bad choice, why would you give up on Germany? And what tells you that after doing so you will get Italy? Even assuming this somehow happens you have a threatening Germany on your border while you also have all of Italy to defend from those who could desire it, it's suicide to do so.

I know about all these problems and I do realize it's not very probable. However I think Prussia and Russia can be convinced by giving them free hand in their areas of influence (Germany and Balkans).

That's utterly unacceptable, Russia and Germany if let a free hand would be a constant threat to Austria, Italy won't compensate for a unified Germany and Russia with the Balkans coming after you.

Not only Austria would get stronger but all 3 of them.

Austria would be weaker, it now has to put down revolts across the entire Italian peninsula (IOTL they failed to put down a Hungarian revolt and fight Savoy at the same time, this is mission impossible) while Prussia and Russia are immensely strengthened.

As for Italians hating Habsburgs, they hated them because Habsburgs were obstacle to Italian unification. If there is united Italy, would they still hate them?

They hate them because they are foreign conquerors who pursue their own interests and treat the Italians poorly, Italian nationalism was based on the fact that the disunified Italian states were always the pawns of the GP which is still very much the case here.

As for Poland, I'm living there and yes, Russia is hated (especially now when it attacked Ukraine but before that too). On the other hand, I think Congress Poland could work if the constitution was actually respected. Later Polish-Russian relations went downhill from there as Russians increased opression.

The Duchy of Warsaw is known for its love of the Russians right?

 

[vn6]

It would be an unacceptable and bad choice, why would you give up on Germany? And what tells you that after doing so you will get Italy? Even assuming this somehow happens you have a threatening Germany on your border while you also have all of Italy to defend from those who could desire it, it's suicide to do so.

That's utterly unacceptable, Russia and Germany if let a free hand would be a constant threat to Austria, Italy won't compensate for a unified Germany and Russia with the Balkans coming after you.

Austria would be weaker, it now has to put down revolts across the entire Italian peninsula (IOTL they failed to put down a Hungarian revolt and fight Savoy at the same time, this is mission impossible) while Prussia and Russia are immensely strengthened.

They hate them because they are foreign conquerors who pursue their own interests and treat the Italians poorly, Italian nationalism was based on the fact that the disunified Italian states were always the pawns of the GP which is still very much the case here.

The Duchy of Warsaw is known for its love of the Russians right?

Okay, I agree overall. Though I think that with better treatment of Italians Austria's position in Italy could have been stronger and (at least some) people wouldn't consider it an opressor.

As for Duchy of Warsaw, of course Russia was hated. I'm only saying that if Congress Poland's constitution was respected, it might make Polish-Russian relations better. Like OTL relations with Austrians were quite good due to autonomy.

 

[Bones101]

I don't think that it is possible. Perhaps there is way how Austria can keep Venicce-Lombardy and give them same status as for Hungary but even that seems bit unlikely.

You could anyway get Kingdom of Italy under Habsburg if Tuscany manage to unite Italy. Italians never would accept their nation being ruled from Vienna. Not too sure if even Austrians wanted control of whole Italy.

Hungary was an independent country in the real union, Lombardy Venetia would at best be a federal state, and even that I doubt

 

[Bones101]

True. Only after Ausgleich other nationalities got more autonomy; I wonder what the empire would look like if Habsburgs treated Hungarians and Italians as well as others better from the start. Despite the state being absolutist they could at least e.g. give Italians access to higher posts in government.

What? Austria for the longest time respected the historical Constitutions of its territories. Franz Joseph was the first Habsburg monarch not to take an oath on the Bohemian constitution, and even then Czechs and Hungarians enjoyed high positions in government. And someone from the other territories gaining a good position wasn't unheard of either. The Habsburgs were far more benevolent to their minorities for as long as they existed then possibly any other empire in Europe. The Italians were the only ones that weren't treated as well by the Imperial government, and I think that's because they weren't part of the empire long enough. The other minorities integrated into the Habsburg system over long periods of time, the Italians went maybe 10 years before revolting so they never integrated into the system.

 

[Kronistry]

Okay, I agree overall. Though I think that with better treatment of Italians Austria's position in Italy could have been stronger and (at least some) people wouldn't consider it an opressor.

As for Duchy of Warsaw, of course Russia was hated. I'm only saying that if Congress Poland's constitution was respected, it might make Polish-Russian relations better. Like OTL relations with Austrians were quite good due to autonomy.

TBH, the Polish population and elites considered the Austrians to be less oppressive because they were less powerful. Germany and Russia were close to be superpowers while Austria was a great diplomatical and cultural power, but its army and economy were rather weak. When you consider the UK, France, Russia, Germay, Austria is clearly the last power on the list. Also, Germany had the historical heartland of Poland within its borders while Russia occupied the largest and most populous part of the nation, while Austria had Galicia, rather poor and unimportant AFAIK if not for Cracow. In Italy, Austria was the only 'oppressor', so it's not at all the same context as in Poland.
As for the Duchy of Warsaw, there is virtually no chance to see an independent Poland having good relationships with Russia in the 19th century context. If you talk about autonomy, sure it would have helped greatly, but if nationalism is too strong in Poland, then it could create more problems for the Russians and leads to indenpendence. That's why Russia finally decided to oppress the Polish OTL, it was too risky for their inetrests.

 

[Bones101]

TBH, the Polish population and elites considered the Austrians to be less oppressive because they were less powerful. Germany and Russia were close to be superpowers while Austria was a great diplomatical and cultural power, but its army and economy were rather weak. When you consider the UK, France, Russia, Germay, Austria is clearly the last power on the list. Also, Germany had the historical heartland of Poland within its borders while Russia occupied the largest and most populous part of the nation, while Austria had Galicia, rather poor and unimportant AFAIK if not for Cracow. In Italy, Austria was the only 'oppressor', so it's not at all the same context as in Poland.
As for the Duchy of Warsaw, there is virtually no chance to see an independent Poland having good relationships with Russia in the 19th century context. If you talk about autonomy, sure it would have helped greatly, but if nationalism is too strong in Poland, then it could create more problems for the Russians and leads to indenpendence. That's why Russia finally decided to oppress the Polish OTL, it was too risky for their inetrests.

Austria-Hungary could have been as oppressive as Germany or Russia, it wasn't an issue of power. In the late 19th century they were allies to the great polish oppressors so they would've had total support had they chosen to oppress poles. They didn't because that's not how the Habsburgs rule. Others assimilate and conquer, the Habsburgs integrate. Also AH had an economy like 97% the size of France + Algeria so they weren't economically weak.

 

[Kronistry]

Austria-Hungary could have been as oppressive as Germany or Russia, it wasn't an issue of power. In the late 19th century they were allies to the great polish oppressors so they would've had total support had they chosen to oppress poles. They didn't because that's not how the Habsburgs rule. Others assimilate and conquer, the Habsburgs integrate. Also AH had an economy like 97% the size of France + Algeria so they weren't economically weak.

I agree with You on the tolerance of the Austrian Empire overall. It wasn't perfect but during the interwar period many people in the Balkans (especially the Jews and the Hungarians) regretted them because they never really tried to brutally create a unified nation (like Yugoslavia) but rather keep their empire united by granting autonomy. It wasn't a recent thing. Hungary had Always its institutions and culture respected and during the Austrian Netherlands' Time, the Habsburg were pretty popular. Also, Prussia, Russia and Austrian hadn't the same strategy to expand. Wheras the former two expanded through war generally, the Habsburg had always expanded through marriage and diplomacy. It created a different mindset on how to rule.
If I'm not incorrect, AH was nearly as economically powerful as France in 1914 or just a few years before. ITTL it wouldn't be the same IMO. And above all, AH's GDP was the same as France, but it's not the only option to take into account when we talk about economical power. OTL, the US were the 1st one in this area in 1914 however Britain, Germany and also France on a smaller scale were the three leading powers in terms of trade and financial influence. It wasn't the case for AH.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Yeah probably actually. A Habsburg could be king of Italy (very, very unlikely) but he would have to be completely Independent from Vienna and have international support (France could support that against Nice and Savoy like OTL). However if Austria keeps territories considered as Italian by nationalists (Venetia, Lombardia or even the Tyrol or the northern Dalmatian coast) then the Habsburg italian King ITTL could be hated and finish exiled or killed and replaced by someone. To sum this up, this scenario is near ASB IMO.

And he needs to be liberal. The Kings of Two Sicilies was completely independent from any foreign power but due to his conservative tendencies it was overthrown very quickly.

 

[vn6]

What? Austria for the longest time respected the historical Constitutions of its territories. Franz Joseph was the first Habsburg monarch not to take an oath on the Bohemian constitution, and even then Czechs and Hungarians enjoyed high positions in government. And someone from the other territories gaining a good position wasn't unheard of either. The Habsburgs were far more benevolent to their minorities for as long as they existed then possibly any other empire in Europe. The Italians were the only ones that weren't treated as well by the Imperial government, and I think that's because they weren't part of the empire long enough. The other minorities integrated into the Habsburg system over long periods of time, the Italians went maybe 10 years before revolting so they never integrated into the system.

Not only Italians but also Poles weren't give high position in the government AFAIK and the administration language in Galicia was German before it got autonomy.

 

[vn6]

TBH, the Polish population and elites considered the Austrians to be less oppressive because they were less powerful. Germany and Russia were close to be superpowers while Austria was a great diplomatical and cultural power, but its army and economy were rather weak. When you consider the UK, France, Russia, Germay, Austria is clearly the last power on the list. Also, Germany had the historical heartland of Poland within its borders while Russia occupied the largest and most populous part of the nation, while Austria had Galicia, rather poor and unimportant AFAIK if not for Cracow. In Italy, Austria was the only 'oppressor', so it's not at all the same context as in Poland.
As for the Duchy of Warsaw, there is virtually no chance to see an independent Poland having good relationships with Russia in the 19th century context. If you talk about autonomy, sure it would have helped greatly, but if nationalism is too strong in Poland, then it could create more problems for the Russians and leads to indenpendence. That's why Russia finally decided to oppress the Polish OTL, it was too risky for their inetrests.

I agree overall but I don't think Austrians being less powerful was the reason they were liked more. The fact that they were less powerful was the reason they granted autonomy though.

 

[Kronistry]

I agree overall but I don't think Austrians being less powerful was the reason they were liked more. The fact that they were less powerful was the reason they granted autonomy though.

So in the end it's the same thing: the Austrians are less powerful, so they grant more autonomy and then they're liked more.

 

[Bones101]

Not only Italians but also Poles weren't give high position in the government AFAIK and the administration language in Galicia was German before it got autonomy.

The poles were given positions in government once they had integrated into the Habsburg system. After the 1867 compromise they got cultural autonomy, and would go on to support the Imperial government and multiple people from Galicia even became prime minister of Austria.

 

[vn6]

The poles were given positions in government once they had integrated into the Habsburg system. After the 1867 compromise they got cultural autonomy, and would go on to support the Imperial government and multiple people from Galicia even became prime minister of Austria.

I know all this but I'm talking about pre-1867 situation here.