WI: Umar ibn Hafsun defeats the Umayyads - Mozarab/Muladí Al-Andalus

[Bomster]

I would say yes, in theory the greatest Islamic contact due to proximity will be in the Maghreb. But as long as the Mediterranean does not become a Christian lake, trade with other Islamic kingdoms in the Mediterranean will exist. West African empire is more difficult especially at that time. With contact occurring through the Maghreb emirates. In the future, with naval advancement, it is theoretically possible. A direct contact requires Magren (Morocco at least) to be in Andalusian control. And even so, contact will be through Arab and Berber caravans.

another power that is interesting to see how they would react to the Fatimids. It will be interesting to see how they would react to things like the Zaj revolt.

Oh also, if Muladi Islam becomes more acceptable to Europe, could it mean trade with the Christian kingdoms to the north?

 

[holycookie]

Would African trade be prominent enough to encourage the development of seafaring technology?

Maybe, I would say probably not. One of the factors the kingdom already has is location, geography. But to achieve what Portugal did you would need a Henry the Navigator, Strong Technological Advancements, and the will or need to bypass the overland trade routes controlled by Arab and Italian merchants.

Andalus could become a naval power

This the nation can be a naval power without exploring the new world.

 

[Nivek]

Oh also, if Muladi Islam becomes more acceptable to Europe, could it mean trade with the Christian kingdoms to the north?

They trade regardless of religious difference...a lot of slave trade was even brokered by the catholic church

 

[Bomster]

How does the Mozarabic language develop? I assume it becomes the language of governance in Alt-Andalus. Does it continue to gain Arabic influence or does it remain Romantic with Arabic loanwords and text?

Additionally how would ibn Hafsun’s Al-Andalus approach its northern neighbors, Asturias and Navarre?

 

[holycookie]

Oh also, if Muladi Islam becomes more acceptable to Europe, could it mean trade with the Christian kingdoms to the north?

They had strong trade with Christian Europe. Andalus exported several products. Important agriculture such as olives and spices. In addition, it sold more complex products textiles, ceramics, metalwork, and woodwork, including intricately designed tiles, pottery, jewelry, perfumes and weapons. In contrast, it imported back luxury products, precious metals, Glassware, Arms and Armors, among other products. It was a very complex trade.

Now one thing that Andalus always wanted most was slaves, with Prague slave trade being vital. With the Slavs pagan being send to Prague, and later sent via France to Al-Andalus, which was both a destination for the slaves as well as center of slave trade to the rest of the Muslim world in the Middle East. Al Andalus referred to the forests of Central and Eastern Europe, which came to function as a slave source supply, as the Bilad as-Saqaliba ("land of the slaves"). That's why I talked about possible future slave markets for the Andalusians

They trade regardless of religious difference...a lot of slave trade was even brokered by the catholic church

The majority who went towards Al Andalus came through France. With the church prohibiting the commercialization of Christians but being indifferent to pagans.

 

[Nivek]

How does the Mozarabic language develop? I assume it becomes the language of governance in Alt-Andalus. Does it continue to gain Arabic influence or does it remain Romantic with Arabic loanwords and text?

Additionally how would ibn Hafsun’s Al-Andalus approach its northern neighbors, Asturias and Navarre?

Mozabaric was functionally Spanish, not seriously

i understand this easier than italian

 

[holycookie]

How does the Mozarabic language develop? I assume it becomes the language of governance in Alt-Andalus. Does it continue to gain Arabic influence or does it remain Romantic with Arabic loanwords and text?

You probably have the Muladi language/mozarabic (Andalusi Romance) becoming the government language. But without the Umayyads pushing for the use of the Arabic language it probably won't be the center of everything. But it will be important because of the Quran. So you probably have a mix, which is not very different from otl. Most of the caliphs spoke Arabic, Berber and Mozarabic. I would say that these three remain important, perhaps Arab and Berber have a decline with the rise of the Muladi, especially Berber. But due to the importance of Arabic for religion it will always remain. Now it can be modified in the long term as andalusi arabic was.

Additionally how would ibn Hafsun’s Al-Andalus approach its northern neighbors, Asturias and Navarre?

Probably the same as the Arabs, the Bani Qasi for exemple fought a lot with the Christian kingdoms.The biggest change he makes is internal rather than external. Umayyad foreign policy was generally logical.

 

[Nivek]

Additionally how would ibn Hafsun’s Al-Andalus approach its northern neighbors, Asturias and Navarre?

As OTL,raids, answer any incursion of them with raids but not bothering unless they want to fight, Andalus used the mountain kingdoms as a release valve.

 

[holycookie]

As OTL,raids, answer any incursion of them with raids but not bothering unless they want to fight, Andalus used the mountain kingdoms as a release valve.

If you compare the behavior of the Caliphate of Cordoba with Spain and Portugal you will see a lot of similarities in foreign policy. push the border north towards the Pyrenees. And to the south maintain naval supremacy and control the most important port cities such as Tangier. I would say that if the muladi really want to deal with the Christians in the north at once (which the Banu Qasi will probably want) they could in theory deal with the kingdom of Asturia. It would be a good way to start this new era with a bang. Now the Navarre region and the Hispanic March probably remain part of France.

 

[Bomster]

Mozabaric was functionally Spanish, not seriously

i understand this easier than italian

Wow... it literally sounds almost exactly like the Mexican flavor of Spanish I am familiar with, though with Arabic text rather than Latin, which looks cursed but is still really cool. I really love the second video too, because he is essentially creating a more modernized form of Mozarabic.

As OTL,raids, answer any incursion of them with raids but not bothering unless they want to fight, Andalus used the mountain kingdoms as a release valve.

What do you mean by "release valve"? Also any chance the Alt-Andalusians spread their unique brand of Islam to other parts of North Africa or Europe?

 

[Bomster]

If you compare the behavior of the Caliphate of Cordoba with Spain and Portugal you will see a lot of similarities in foreign policy. push the border north towards the Pyrenees. And to the south maintain naval supremacy and control the most important port cities such as Tangier. I would say that if the muladi really want to deal with the Christians in the north at once (which the Banu Qasi will probably want) they could in theory deal with the kingdom of Asturia. It would be a good way to start this new era with a bang. Now the Navarre region and the Hispanic March probably remain part of France.

Well, Umar ibn Hafsun made overtures to the Asturians himself irl, though this was after his conversion to Christianity. After deposing the Umayyads, would there be any appetite to take the fight to the north, especially when this new Al-Andalus is far friendlier to Christians? I think coexistence would be more likely, with occasional skirmishes. Asturias/Navarre might be the Portugal to Al-Andalus' Spain, a culturally similar but competing power.

 

[Nivek]

Wow... it literally sounds almost exactly like the Mexican flavor of Spanish I am familiar with, though with Arabic text rather than Latin, which looks cursed but is still really cool. I really love the second video too, because he is essentially creating a more modernized form of Mozarabic.

That's why i linked it, because not only on english but explaining that, Mozarabic itself was functionally Spanish with Arabic vocabulary and writing systems(also some did use latin alphabet too.) so it would evolve that way

What do you mean by "release valve"? Also any chance the Alt-Andalusians spread their unique brand of Islam to other parts of North Africa or Europe?

That a lot of professional and ad-hoc Furrusiya and adventures used the state of war/tension to raid as both keeping their neighbour on their side and a way to train themselves..so a escape valve the professional soldier class.

 

[Bomster]

So I've been calling this scenario's Al-Andalus "Alt-Andalus" for brevity's sake, but what would they call themselves? I'm assuming El Andalucía, then eventually simply Andalucía, which is the Spanish translation of Al-Andalus and the modern name for the region. Considering that Mozarabic could be virtually identical to OTL Spanish except for in writing, I imagine this would be the name of Alt-Andalus. If English still becomes a language this would simply be respelled as Andalusia.

Alternatively because the writing system is the same does it remain Al Andalus instead of El Andalus?

 

[holycookie]

After deposing the Umayyads, would there be any appetite to take the fight to the north, especially when this new Al-Andalus is far friendlier to Christians?

Look, I would say yes, whether it was in the era of Umar or Umar's son. Just because they are tolerant of Christians (and probably have a weird version of islam, which is basically a mix of the two religions.) does not mean they will not compete for power. If they smell blood in the water they will go for the jugular without a doubt

I think coexistence would be more likely, with occasional skirmishes.

This is the 10th century not the modern world they will always want to expand their influence. The Banu Qasi, for example, at times allied with Asturia against Navarre, but both, if given the opportunity, would backstap each other.

Asturias/Navarre might be the Portugal to Al-Andalus' Spain, a culturally similar but competing power.

Spain tried to annex Portugal multiple times, and managed to achieve a crown union with the country for a while. Andalus will want to expand its borders something natural. At some point the country will simply outscale in such a way that annexing Asturia is logical. During OTL the era of Al Mansur they heavily plundered the Christian north almost annually to the point that the kingdoms became almost vassals.

 

[holycookie]

but what would they call themselves?

probably Andalusians, or Andalusians-something. With Berber and Arab Andalusians probably differentiating themselves from Muladi and Mozarabics.

I'm assuming El Andalucía, then eventually simply Andalucía, which is the Spanish translation of Al-Andalus and the modern name for the region.

Now the official name will probably be emirate or sultanate of Andalus. Now you can have a repeat declaration of caliphate, in this case it would be Caliphate (name of Umar's dynasty)

Considering that Mozarabic could be virtually identical to OTL Spanish except for in writing.

The writing will probably be in Arabic, but I wouldn't be surprised if writing in the most popular romance language would be necessary.

Alternatively because the writing system is the same does it remain Al Andalus instead of El Andalus?

This will depend on the governmental language of the court.

 

[Bomster]

Look, I would say yes, whether it was in the era of Umar or Umar's son. Just because they are tolerant of Christians (and probably have a weird version of islam, which is basically a mix of the two religions.) does not mean they will not compete for power. If they smell blood in the water they will go for the jugular without a doubt

This is the 10th century not the modern world they will always want to expand their influence. The Banu Qasi, for example, at times allied with Asturia against Navarre, but both, if given the opportunity, would backstap each other.

Spain tried to annex Portugal multiple times, and managed to achieve a crown union with the country for a while. Andalus will want to expand its borders something natural. At some point the country will simply outscale in such a way that annexing Asturia is logical. During OTL the era of Al Mansur they heavily plundered the Christian north almost annually to the point that the kingdoms became almost vassals.

From my understanding, Umayyad Al-Andalus relied on mercenaries, mainly Berbers, for an army. They didn't really have a standing army of their own. Assuming this is true, an Al-Andalus ruled by locals rather than a class of foreigners relying on other foreigners to keep the country in line could be much stronger militarily. At the very least without having to worry as much about internal issues Alt-Andalus would already be stronger militarily.

 

[Bomster]

As far as I remember his father, Hafsun ibn Said, was a Berber, and his mother, Subh, was said to be of Visigothic descent. But again this can be denied depending on the situation. When Ibn Hayyan cites, Umar ibn Hafsun's lineage, he traces back to a great-grandfather named Ja'far ibn Salim, who was said to have converted to Islam and settled in southern Spain. The pedigree mentioned by Ibn Hayyan then traces back several generations to a figure named Count Marcellus (or Frugelo), who was described as the son of Alfonso and prominently had a Christian Visigothic background. The reason of the focus on his Visigothic heritage probably has to do with the fact that the mother's inheritance has more importance and weight.

As for Umar ibn Hafsun's dynasty name, perhaps it takes a cue from this alleged ancestry. Perhaps he names it after his supposed Visigothic ancestor Count Marcellus, which could be transliterated as Marcelo or Marsilu in Mozarabic. So the Marsilid dynasty? Al-Marsilu?

Alternatively one could gain the epithet "Al-Quti", which is Arabic for "The Goth".

 

[holycookie]

From my understanding, Umayyad Al-Andalus relied on mercenaries, mainly Berbers, for an army.

this depends on the period, during the Al-mansur era with the destruction of the Arab elite. The army was made up primarily of Berbers and Saqaliba(slavic slave soldiers). Andalus before that had a the standing army, known as the "Armis" or "Armiya" in Arabic. It was composed of both Arab and Berber soldiers, who served as the core military units. In addition to the Armis, the Umayyads also employed auxiliary forces, such as tribal warriors and local militias, to supplement their military strength. So while they used mercenaries most of the army was normal. Individuals who were enlisted or conscripted into the military and received regular training and payment from the Umayyad authorities.

They didn't really have a standing army of their own.

Under the rule of Abd al-Rahman III, it could have fielded anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 soldiers during its peak. The issue was that the army was composed of Arabs and Berbers. Muladi soldiers, being of Iberian or Hispano-Roman origin, often faced discrimination or perceived lower social status compared to soldiers of Arab or Berber origin. This disparity in social standing could lead to a lot of friction and resentment within the military ranks. What changes with Umar is that the army will be primarily made up of muladis. What is more viable in the long term as they have the largest Islamic population

Assuming this is true, an Al-Andalus ruled by locals rather than a class of foreigners relying on other foreigners to keep the country in line could be much stronger militarily.

yes it was a vicious circle. Muladis were viewed with suspicion due to their Iberian heritage and potential ties to the local population, who were not wholly supportive of Umayyad rule. This perception of potential disloyalty could lead to their exclusion from positions of power and responsibility. Couple this with the Arab-Berber Alliances, the Socio-Cultural Differences plus Arab Supremacy and you have a recipe for the exclusion of the kingdom's largest manpower base. (It seems a bit stupid to us, but following a logic of Arab supremacy it makes sense)

At the very least without having to worry as much about internal issues Alt-Andalus would already be stronger militarily.

@Nivek will probably know better than me but all Muslims who owned land had to serve. Making room for muladis in the army (even with the losses of a purge of a good part of the Arab and Berber elite) probably significantly increases the nation's manpower.

 

[Ursogulos]

Perhaps this makes Al-Andalus more palatable to the Northern Christian kingdoms, as well as Europe as a whole, butterflying or atleast delaying a Reconquista.

Cathars cough* Hussites cough*

Nope, they will not suddenly start tolerating a group of Muslims because their belief is similar to Christians. Unless there arises a need for military assistance against another muslim power( re: Druzes in levant)

However it could also trigger backlash from the wider Muslim world, since as you mention this Andalusian Islam could be seen as heretical to core believers of Orthodox Islam.

Maghrebi jihads when?

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

Whoops! I'm late to the party. Glad to see a serious al-Andalus discussion though

One idea I've started to really like as of late is an Ibadi al-Andalus. The movement was, IIRC, spreading in North Africa around the same time that Omar ben Hafsún was rebelling against the Umayyads. It could fit our take on al-Andalus quite well, considering its religious divergences