A surviving Lord Kitchener in a Central Powers victory TL? Plausibility Check.

This is an idea I’ve been toying with for a while. Its more or less what it says on the tin, the U-Boat that sunk his ship on the way to Russia never does so and he gets to his destination, only to receive a telegram from Lloyd George that he’s been sacked as secretary of war effective immediately(This was apparently something he was already playing with doing so in OTL), with him spending the rest of the war trying to help the Russians not suck quite so bad as the British under his replacement(Whoever that was.....if you haven’t guessed I am not well read on this time period at all) manage to bungle the war badly enough they lose to the Germans. How? To be honest I don’t know, it doesn’t really matter and is not what the TL If I ever get around to it is going to be really about anyway-, where the usual Kaiserreichesque scenario happens. You know the drill, Mittleafrika gobbles up all the French and British colonies in Africa, Imperial Rule in India collapses and the Irish declare Independence this time with Ulster being dragged around as well! Oh and the government has to pay back all those American loans it took out?

Coupled with the ensuing economic collapse, Britain.....is umm not the most stable country after all this, and after an abortive Socialist Uprising which is brutally crushed by Government troops, who should come on the scene, but our old friend Kitchener, capitalising on the Pseudo Personality cult he built up during the war years(One man apparently committed suicide when hearing of his death), focusing on Anti Catholicism sorry I mean “the plight of our Protestant Brethren in Ulster”, and a kind of one man version of the stab in the back myth as in “I was definitely winning the war until those damn self serving Politicians sacked me!” to shove his way into the Prime Minister’s seat with the tacit approval of King George , where upon he fills the twentieth centuries quota for a right wing moustachioed military dictator born in a Celtic Country leading a washed up former colonial power(though with a lot of residual influence in the white dominions at least) a few decades early.....well he doesn’t go full Fascist with it being kind of like Horthy’s Hungray though with a lot of that kind of Influence. So while you might not see Jews being herded into Gas Chambers, a certain Mr Mosley might be getting a call from Downing Street soon enough.

So with all that being said....does this scenario have a day lights chance of working or is their some facet of early 20th century British political or military history that I am sadly ignorant of it that renders the concept rubbish?
 
This is an idea I’ve been toying with for a while. Its more or less what it says on the tin, the U-Boat that sunk his ship on the way to Russia never does so and he gets to his destination, only to receive a telegram from Lloyd George that he’s been sacked as secretary of war effective immediately(This was apparently something he was already playing with doing so in OTL), with him spending the rest of the war trying to help the Russians not suck quite so bad as the British under his replacement(Whoever that was.....if you haven’t guessed I am not well read on this time period at all) manage to bungle the war badly enough they lose to the Germans. How? To be honest I don’t know, it doesn’t really matter and is not what the TL If I ever get around to it is going to be really about anyway-, where the usual Kaiserreichesque scenario happens. You know the drill, Mittleafrika gobbles up all the French and British colonies in Africa, Imperial Rule in India collapses and the Irish declare Independence this time with Ulster being dragged around as well! Oh and the government has to pay back all those American loans it took out?
A more competent UK advisor to the Provisional Government does not make them win, they're still starving, with Bolsheviks growing and military defeats. The Provisional Government was doomed IOTL, you need to change something else to keep Russia in the fight.
Coupled with the ensuing economic collapse, Britain.....is umm not the most stable country after all this, and after an abortive Socialist Uprising which is brutally crushed by Government troops, who should come on the scene, but our old friend Kitchener, capitalising on the Pseudo Personality cult he built up during the war years(One man apparently committed suicide when hearing of his death), focusing on Anti Catholicism sorry I mean “the plight of our Protestant Brethren in Ulster”, and a kind of one man version of the stab in the back myth as in “I was definitely winning the war until those damn self serving Politicians sacked me!” to shove his way into the Prime Minister’s seat with the tacit approval of King George , where upon he fills the twentieth centuries quota for a right wing moustachioed military dictator born in a Celtic Country leading a washed up former colonial power(though with a lot of residual influence in the white dominions at least) a few decades early.....well he doesn’t go full Fascist with it being kind of like Horthy’s Hungray though with a lot of that kind of Influence. So while you might not see Jews being herded into Gas Chambers, a certain Mr Mosley might be getting a call from Downing Street soon enough.
Let's say it's not the most likely scenario but if you want cool TLs instead of 100% realistic ones it's fine, but I personally don't like when governments automatically go fascists/communists just because they lose WW1.
So with all that being said....does this scenario have a day lights chance of working or is their some facet of early 20th century British political or military history that I am sadly ignorant of it that renders the concept rubbish?
You need some other POD to make Russia survive longer and IMHO I don't like the idea of Britain automatically going fascist once it loses, like there's no other option than a country going fascist/communist?
 
Technically speaking, even a much more favourable Jutland for the Germans in May/ June 1916 which resulted in Britain and the Entente's remaining members suing for peace and news about the Entente defeat at Jutland preventing Lord Kitchener and HMS Hampshire from being lost by mining just in time.
 
A more competent UK advisor to the Provisional Government does not make them win, they're still starving, with Bolsheviks growing and military defeats. The Provisional Government was doomed IOTL, you need to change something else to keep Russia in the fight.
.....I never mentioned that in my post and for the matter how would the Provisional Government staying in the fight cause the Germans to win?
Why is pro-Irish Mosley getting a call from Downing Street?
Well Kitchener was born in Ireland /s.
But yeah your right probably should have used a different example lol
You need some other POD to make Russia survive longer and IMHO I don't like the idea of Britain automatically going fascist once it loses, like there's no other option than a country going fascist/communist?
....But they aren’t Fascists? It’s just a generic right wing military dictatorship with some Revanchist tendencies alas Francos Spain or Horthy’s Hungary.
 
.....I never mentioned that in my post and for the matter how would the Provisional Government staying in the fight cause the Germans to win?
It wouldn't, but then I have misunderstood your post, could you explain what you meant?
....But they aren’t Fascists? It’s just a generic right wing military dictatorship with some Revanchist tendencies alas Francos Spain or Horthy’s Hungary.
Very similar to fascist, why does Britain have to go right-wing if it loses WW1?
 
It wouldn't, but then I have misunderstood your post, could you explain what you meant?
I never once mentioned Kitchener being there somehow allowing the Provisional Government to survive or what he would even do in Russia. Where did you get that idea geniunely from anything I wrote?
Very similar to fascist, why does Britain have to go right-wing if it loses WW1?
Because of the collapse of its colonial empire, the humiliation of defeat in war and ensuing economic collapse would make a fertile spawning ground for Communist and Ultranationalist sentiments to rise? And this is a really odd complaint because one could say the same thing about their being a Syndaclist Revolution in Britain which is a far greater cliche in Alt History(which this idea is a very conscience flip off for better or worse) or the astonishing stability of the British democratic system in most alt history. Yes of course the parliamentary constitutional monarchy could survive(It took a lot for even Weimar to go down), but theirs no particular reason why it wouldn’t and this sort of right wing/vaguely revanchist government taking power in Britain isn’t one I’ve seen explored before.
 
A nae you might want to look out is Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson. I too don't see how getting Russia to stay in the war longer helps the Central Powers win.
 
A nae you might want to look out is Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson. I too don't see how getting Russia to stay in the war longer helps the Central Powers win.
Its more or less what it says on the tin, the U-Boat that sunk his ship on the way to Russia never does so and he gets to his destination, only to receive a telegram from Lloyd George that he’s been sacked as secretary of war effective immediately(This was apparently something he was already playing with doing so in OTL), with him spending the rest of the war trying to help the Russians not suck quite so bad as the British under his replacement(Whoever that was.....if you haven’t guessed I am not well read on this time period at all) manage to bungle the war badly enough they lose to the Germans.
Please tell me where in this paragraph it mentions Russia staying in the war longer?
 
OK but I still don't see how Kitchener's activity in Russia works to the benefit of the Central Powers.
This thread isn’t about “Kitchener lives and the Allies magically lose WW1,” Its more of a. “What if Kitchener lived and what are the odds of him taking power in a Britain that lost WW1 for completely seperate and unimportant reasons"
 
Because of the collapse of its colonial empire
Okay, why does the colonial empire immediately collapse? Britain seems to have the capabilities of defending it for the moment. And losing a colonial empire doesn't make people go right-wing immediately.
and ensuing economic collapse
Why does its economy collapse? It would have economic problems, but it wouldn't be in a Weimar Germany situation where they have hyper-inflation because of war reparations (and Weimar Germany ultimately managed to get out of the crisis), and it had economic problems IOTL too after re-introducing the gold standard, which wouldn't be done if they already have economic problems, and it didn't go right-wing IOTL. And same thing during the Great Depression, why didn't they go communists/ultra-nationalists with an economic crisis? Because it's not the most likely outcome.
would make a fertile spawning ground for Communist and Ultranationalist sentiments to rise?
Why ultra-nationalism? Ultra-nationalism historically took power in nations who felt that some territories that belonged to them were either taken away from them or were not given to them which isn't the case of GB.
Why communist? The Conservatives and Liberals dominated Parliament IOTL even with economic crisis (during the 20's and the Great Depression). If the people were to ever become dissatisfied with the ruling parties, they would vote for Labour who never got a majority pre-WW2 despite economic crisis happening, really the communist party has no chance at taking power anytime soon.
Yes of course the parliamentary constitutional monarchy could survive(It took a lot for even Weimar to go down), but theirs no particular reason why it wouldn’t and this sort of right wing/vaguely revanchist government taking power in Britain isn’t one I’ve seen explored before.
What is Britain revanchist about? Why would Britain want to go back to war with Germany (with an approximate 99.9%+ chance of losing) after having the mildest peace deal they could've gotten after losing?
 
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Also I have doubts on a guy over 65 to be able to appeal to the younger generations like Mussolini or Hitler did.
... regardless on my personal opinion of this ... person:
he became chancellor of the FRG at the age of 73​
... and still was The Big Boss of postwar Germany through all the postwar challenges there were with Stalin, german rearmament, avoiding 👿 timey german unification, etc., etc. for another 14 (in words fourteen ... until the gerontic age of 87) years.​

Tbh : I don't see what some Kitchener should not be able to keep on the one and other decade post WW 1 also 😉
 
Tbh : I don't see what some Kitchener should not be able to keep on the one and other decade post WW 1 also 😉
That wasn't my point, fascist governments who came to power by winning (at least some) popular support, were not exactly 70 y/o, I'm not certain that Kitchener will manage to have this appeal.
 
... another 'example' of gerontic 'Leadership' of almost(?)-fascistical tainting : Petain (?)
( I try to avoid going for current political gerontocratic leaders of rather ... 'nationalistic'/'konservative revolutionarey'/'schtronckly-back-to-ye-ol'-virtues' color ;-9)
Due to being 'sacked' during the war his standing as a War Hero he had well before WW1 started this reputation woult still be rather unharmed.
 
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... another 'example' of gerontic 'Leadership' of almost(?)-fascistical tainting : Petain (?)
( I try to avoid going for current political gerontocratic leaders of rather ... 'nationalistic'/'konservative revolutionarey'/'schtronckly-back-to-ye-ol'-virtues' color ;-9)
Due to being 'sacked' during the war his standing as a War Hero he had well before WW1 started this reputation woult still be rather unharmed.
Petain came to power because he was invited in the government and then the French Parliament gave him full powers, if Kitchener is saying that all the politicians have betrayed him I doubt they would be very eager to put him in charge and without WW2 Petain wouldn't be very likely to come to power which doesn't happen in the OP when Kitchener comes to power.
 
Simply put, there Is no way for even a victorious Germany of grabbing British colonies. At the best they can keep their african ones. So there is no chance of britain losing their empire (even in the wildly implausibile KR scenario, they lose It After a socialist Revolution collapses central rule, not in the aftermath of WW1). That said, there is not either a way the Germans can force reparations Upon the British. The thing is that the british may well "not win" WW1, but they can't "lose It". They would suffer economically, maybe slighltly more than IOTL, but their economy would be leagues away from collapsing. This does not mean that ending up with a german dominated continent, with Russia already vanquished, would not be a very severe blunder for them, but not one to collapse their empire, nor civil rule. Indeed, in a worst case for them the UK would end up conceding their economic primacy to the USA and, in time, to Germany, but they would still be in the top 3.
Finally while a German Total victory would pit them as the hegemon on the continent, German hegemony would be far from the one the French enjoyed under Napoleon, and very far from what nazi Germany did 20 years later: France would be beaten but not outright destroyed. Some...sort of Russia would emerge after the war, even if One which would be massively weekened, compared to OTL. Down South there would still be Austria-Hungary. In the end, the Germans would be much more focused on managing their newfound Empire than on challenging the British again.
 
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