Alternate mediatisation of the HRE without Napoleon?

Napoleon completely changed the HRE/Germany. The HRE was abolished but before a lot of states were compensated or annexed other states by allying themselves with Napoleon. Especially Bavaria, Baden, Nassau, Württemberg and some others got a lot of territories and in just a few years the number of member states of the HRE then Rhine Confederation then German Confederation was reduced from more than 300 to a few dozen.

So if Napoleon didnt atack the HRE or if he never got to power how woud the HRE continued? I mean a few decades later the HRE would have been in the eras of nationalism based on language (if it would have been like that without the Napoleonic Wars/German wars of liberation) and industrialization.

Would bigger states like Prussia, Austria, Sachsen, etc. would have decided to partition smaller ecclesiastical states because the HRE was basically a relict of passed time in the 19th century. How would such a country developed politically and economically with +300 states and a lot of customs borders
 
Napoleon completely changed the HRE/Germany. The HRE was abolished but before a lot of states were compensated or annexed other states by allying themselves with Napoleon. Especially Bavaria, Baden, Nassau, Württemberg and some others got a lot of territories and in just a few years the number of member states of the HRE then Rhine Confederation then German Confederation was reduced from more than 300 to a few dozen.

So if Napoleon didnt atack the HRE or if he never got to power how woud the HRE continued? I mean a few decades later the HRE would have been in the eras of nationalism based on language (if it would have been like that without the Napoleonic Wars/German wars of liberation) and industrialization.

Would bigger states like Prussia, Austria, Sachsen, etc. would have decided to partition smaller ecclesiastical states because the HRE was basically a relict of passed time in the 19th century. How would such a country developed politically and economically with +300 states and a lot of customs borders
The answer is yes albeit with incredible difficulty and perhaps another war. The war of Austrian succession for instance was the first instance with the ideas of German mediatisation. How the Holy Roman Empire would function in the era of nationalism would be very similar to how the German confederation would work ngl either it forms into a parliamentary empire such as being told in 1848 or it would dissolve and be reforged by blood like 1871 imo.
 
So if Napoleon didnt atack the HRE or if he never got to power how woud the HRE continued? I mean a few decades later the HRE would have been in the eras of nationalism based on language (if it would have been like that without the Napoleonic Wars/German wars of liberation) and industrialization.
German nationalism would be weakened without the Rhine Confederation and the spread of Illuminist ideas.
 
German nationalism would be weakened without the Rhine Confederation and the spread of Illuminist ideas.
That is true but honestly I feel like it would be delayed and not necessarily weakened considering Britain at this point already had nationalist ideas, how long it would be delayed is uncertain though.
 
German nationalism would be weakened without the Rhine Confederation and the spread of Illuminist ideas.
That's why I included "(if it would have been like that without the Napoleonic Wars/German wars of liberation)"

Of course it would be different but IMO inevitable, especially in the middle/second half of the 19th century.
 
The answer is yes albeit with incredible difficulty and perhaps another war. The war of Austrian succession for instance was the first instance with the ideas of German mediatisation.
What do you mean exactly? The war of AS was just Prussia trying to get silesia, which they did, or to what are you referring?
 
That's why I included "(if it would have been like that without the Napoleonic Wars/German wars of liberation)"

Of course it would be different but IMO inevitable, especially in the middle/second half of the 19th century.
It would delay events by quite a while since IOTL it started in the first half.
 
Yea frederick wanted to secularize various bishops around Bavaria to strengthen Charles VII


in reality already under Joseph I, there were projects that also involved ( controlled ) mediatization of the smaller states of the Reich, with the aim of strengthening the imperial position ( both indirectly and through territorial acquisitions ) and that of the electorates ( including Mainz, Trier and Cologne ) so as to better guarantee a more successful opposition against French expansionism
 
in reality already under Joseph I, there were projects that also involved ( controlled ) mediatization of the smaller states of the Reich, with the aim of strengthening the imperial position ( both indirectly and through territorial acquisitions ) and that of the electorates ( including Mainz, Trier and Cologne ) so as to better guarantee a more successful opposition against French expansionism
Fair enough so yea you'll see imo something akin to like a consolidation probably around the stem duchies/imperial circle territories before eventually somehow uniting into Germany.
 
Fair enough so yea you'll see imo something akin to like a consolidation probably around the stem duchies/imperial circle territories before eventually somehow uniting into Germany.


In reality the HRE system was quite functional at least until the WoAS, where Prussia proved capable of competing militarily on equal terms with the Habsburgs and knowing how to exploit the same policies of imperial patronage typical of the HRE ( therefore slowly eroding the institutions and balances within the Reich ) but except for this detail, the imperial system was quite vital, what the majority of the German elite really asked for was a program of constitutional and administrative reform that was not hindered by the princes, so if the Habsburgs succeeded to bring voters together to support their reform projects, it is highly probable that we would have seen a consolidation or territorial expansion of Austria and the 9 electorates, the creation of a free economic zone along the Rhine and Danube ( with an adjoining canal between the two rivers ), the strengthening of the imperial church ( which would have seen the main prince-bishops of the Reich subject/annex their minor colleagues in their vicinity ) and a slight expansion of pro-Habsburg minor princes in key positions in the empire ( possibly on the border with France )

@Kellan Sullivan
 
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In reality the HRE system was quite functional at least until the WoAS, where Prussia proved capable of competing militarily on equal terms with the Habsburgs and knowing how to exploit the same policies of imperial patronage typical of the HRE ( therefore slowly eroding the institutions and balances within the Reich ) but except for this detail, the imperial system was quite vital, what the majority of the German elite really asked for was a program of constitutional and administrative reform that was not hindered by the princes, so if the Habsburgs succeeded to bring voters together to support their reform projects, it is highly probable that we would have seen a consolidation or territorial expansion of Austria and the 9 electorates, the creation of a free economic zone along the Rhine and Danube ( with an adjoining canal between the two rivers ), the strengthening of the imperial church ( which would have seen the main prince-bishops of the Reich subject/annex their minor colleagues in their vicinity ) and a slight expansion of pro-Habsburg minor princes in key positions in the empire ( possibly on the border with France )
Ok so if that would have been implemented pro austrian states would have been given smaller states? So I guess the electorate of Hannover maybe would have gained Osnabrück, Bavaria the bishoprics of Augsburg, Regensburg etc. Saxony maybe territories of the ernestine duchies? etc.
 
Ok so if that would have been implemented pro austrian states would have been given smaller states? So I guess the electorate of Hannover maybe would have gained Osnabrück, Bavaria the bishoprics of Augsburg, Regensburg etc. Saxony maybe territories of the ernestine duchies? etc.

Certainly Hanover would have gained Brunswick, Lippe, Waldeck, Anahlt etc, just as Saxony would have expanded slightly in the Ernestine possessions, but I hardly see the ecclesiastical possessions being secularized ( for the Habsburgs it would be a sensational own goal, given that they would weaken the main structure on which based their imperial government ) it is more likely, to see Vienna push to merge the minor ecclesiastical potentates into larger entities and therefore more capable of defending themselves autonomously ( although I can see that some of these territories could actually be ceded to the secular princes , as a sop )
 
The HRE was incredibly weak by the time Napoleon conquered it, and it was bound to fall sometime. I can see a spontaneous North German Confederation arising and the south German Catholic states fall into the orbit of Austria.
 
Certainly Hanover would have gained Brunswick, Lippe, Waldeck, Anahlt etc, just as Saxony would have expanded slightly in the Ernestine possessions, but I hardly see the ecclesiastical possessions being secularized ( for the Habsburgs it would be a sensational own goal, given that they would weaken the main structure on which based their imperial government ) it is more likely, to see Vienna push to merge the minor ecclesiastical potentates into larger entities and therefore more capable of defending themselves autonomously ( although I can see that some of these territories could actually be ceded to the secular princes , as a sop )
Hanover probably would have gained Braunschweig which was ruled by another line of their Welfen dynastay and maybe Lippe but Waldeck didnt even shared a common border with Hannover and I doubt that Anhalt would have been given to them. Rather maybe Hildesheim and Schaumburg Lippe and maybe the Grafschaft Schaumburg of Hessen Kassel. I agree with the second part tho
 
In reality the HRE system was quite functional at least until the WoAS, where Prussia proved capable of competing militarily on equal terms with the Habsburgs and knowing how to exploit the same policies of imperial patronage typical of the HRE ( therefore slowly eroding the institutions and balances within the Reich ) but except for this detail, the imperial system was quite vital, what the majority of the German elite really asked for was a program of constitutional and administrative reform that was not hindered by the princes, so if the Habsburgs succeeded to bring voters together to support their reform projects, it is highly probable that we would have seen a consolidation or territorial expansion of Austria and the 9 electorates, the creation of a free economic zone along the Rhine and Danube ( with an adjoining canal between the two rivers ), the strengthening of the imperial church ( which would have seen the main prince-bishops of the Reich subject/annex their minor colleagues in their vicinity ) and a slight expansion of pro-Habsburg minor princes in key positions in the empire ( possibly on the border with France )

@Kellan Sullivan
pretty much what screwed the Habsburgs was a combination of Maria Theresia not just holding a grudge against Friedrich the Great, but taking it to her breast and nursing it. On three separate occasions she refused to follow her husband's advice to try to bring Prussia back into the fold. On several other occasions she refused to support an appointment to this bishopric or that convent simply because the person had a relationship to Fritz. Max III of Bavaria's father took the whole frigging empire from her, George II of England supported Karl VII and she bore them less ill will like she did towards Fritz.

That being said, the part that really screwed Maria Theresia and the Habsburgs over pre-Revolution was the French alliance. Due to her choosing daughters-in-law (again, against her husband's/Kaunitz' advice) the daughters of foreign kings she short-changed herself. While it can be argued ad nauseam about the prestige of these girls, they had another problem. It meant that MT couldn't fall back on the traditional Habsburg policy of using in-laws (in Leopold I's case, up to his third wife's step-grandmother was roped in) and the wife's family as proxies to "make up the numbers" when there weren't enough Habsburgs. Her father had had his wife's Brunswick relatives to send as proxies to Russia, Berlin, the Hague etc; her uncle had had his wife's nieces in Modena and the Neuburg and Lorraine cousins to play with. Leopold had the Neuburg bunch, the Lorraines, the Hesse-Darmstadts and some of the Wettins that he could use. Maria Theresia was "alone". She had to use her four sons to try and be everything. And she failed when Friedrich the Great had the contemporary nickname in Germany of "everybody's uncle". Maria Theresia's Brunswick cousins had the misfortune that Fritz was their uncle too. And he tended to be somewhat more generous. Maria Theresia's snobbishness didn't help matters, since the Württembergs, the Pfalzes (both Karl Theodor and his nephew), the Mecklenburgs (Queen Charlotte's brother), the Darmstadts and the Badens (Catholic line) all stood ready to offer their services. She pissed off the Württembergs and the Pfalzes (Württemberg by refusing to endorse the position in the imperial church that the Dowager Duchess wanted for Ludwig Eugen, then by refusing to allow the duke to marry her daughter, Elisabeth; the Pfalzes by refusing to allow Amalie to marry the prince of Zweibrucken), the Badens she mistreated because of their support for Karl Albrecht, the Mecklenburgs and Darmstadts because she didn't think they were important enough. A little bit more network talent and less commitment to a useless alliance with the Bourbons (did she need five marriages to the Bourbons when three- Spain, Naples and France- could've sufficed)? A bit more willingness to listen to her husband.

As for alternate electorates, she seriously considered it. But the only one who ever came close to it was Kassel (it was part of the reason behind his conversion to Catholicism, he hoped it would improve his chances). Württemberg got Friedrich the Great out to ensure that their duke didn't take it into his head (even going so far as separating Karl Eugen and his brothers from their Catholic mom to avoid them being "contaminated") to convert. But ultimately, the idea for alternate electorates fell by the wayside until the reign of her grandson, Franz II. He dusted the plan off shortly after he came to the throne, and in a scheme I can't find much on, he planned to "release" Prussia, Saxony and Hannover from the electoral college (i.e. remove them from the Reichstag) because they generally voted against Austrian interests. I'm not sure how he planned to do it, but I suspect that he would've wound up with a Schwarzenberg-type Reich of Eighty Millions.
 
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