Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
British plan A looks good.. What is plan B if enough of the fleet is damaged or off Into the DEI, fighting the Japanese and the Japanese slip all 3 divisions of Kido Butai down for a raid?
Hi Butchpfd, well plan A is to defend Malaya, and thus the Singapore Naval Base, by holding any Japanese aggression as far north as can be. Any likely landings on Malaya's eastern coast are defended by pre positioned forces behind fortifications, while any attack from southern Thailand will be thwarted by the Jitra Line, while the RAF will provide cover overhead. This will buy time for the Royal Navy to assemble a fleet strong enough to defeat the Japanese Navy, well, that's the Singapore Strategy!

Plan B, well that's another matter, Churchill is sending a Flying Squadron, which he hopes will make the Japanese think twice about attacking, while locally, Gort is trying hard to promote a pre-emptive advance into the Kra Peninsula to seize the strategic port of Singora. But with concerns about breaking Thai neutrality, and losing American public opinion, he doesn't have Churchill's agreement. There are agreements with the Dutch to work together, but unfortunately, at this late stage, British Far Eastern positions still rely on Roosevelt's ability to deter the Japanese.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
British plan A looks good.. What is plan B if enough of the fleet is damaged or off Into the DEI, fighting the Japanese and the Japanese slip all 3 divisions of Kido Butai down for a raid?

The Japanese are not going to manage to slip any major units anywhere near Singapore, let alone all 3 divisions of the Kido Butai. Unlike the vast open reaches of the Pacific around Hawaii mostly empty of shipping and aircraft before the attack on Pearl Harbour. The South China Sea, is an ever decreasing funnel that has to pass through numerous shallows and reefs, before squeezing through a group of islands long before you get to the narrow waters of Singapore. And given that hostilities will have begun and its some weeks after the surprise attack on Pearl, there will be patrol boats and aircraft, covering the waters around Singapore out to at least 500 miles away. This action if the Japanese were so foolish to try it, is the equivalent of sticking ones todger in to a hornet’s nest and expecting not to get badly stung.

RR.
 
MWI 41111610 Asama Maru

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Sunday 16 November;

The deep resonate tone of the ships whistle carried across the waters, sounding the closing of the last gangway, the releasing of ropes, and the gentle pull of a tug, as the Nippon Yusen Kaisha (NYK) ocean liner pulled away from the wharf in Keppel Harbour. Aboard were over 450 Japanese, Geisha girls and business men, fishermen and barbers, tin and iron miners, wives and children, all waving Sayonara to Singapore.

Prior to the Asama Maru leaving, the Greek flagged tramp steamer, SS Taygetos, 4,250 tons, had arrived from Recife, Brazil, by way of Durban, loaded with sugar, animal and agricultural products, joining a harbour busy with about a dozen other ships anchored in the roads. And leaving after it was the 14,000-ton passenger liner MS Tegelberg, of the Dutch, Koninklijke Paketvaart Maatschappij (KPM) line. She was bound for Batavia, enabling the normal movement of people around South East Asia and the Far East. Later in the night she would overtake the British cargo ship SS Medon, which had left Singapore much earlier but at 10 kts, was quickly caught by Telgelberg’s 16 kts.

The Asama Maru had a touch of notoriety about her, having been at the centre of a major international incident. On 21 January 1940, having left San Francisco earlier in the month, the ship was intercepted by the Royal Navy light cruiser HMS Liverpool, a shot fired across her bow, stopping her, and an armed boarding party forcibly removed 21 Germans, attempting to return to Germany. It had been authorised by the British Government, acting on intelligence reports, but in direct violation of Japan's neutrality and international law. It was made worse by the fact that they were only just outside Japanese waters.

On the wharf looking up at the impressive 17,000-ton ship, was Japanese Consul General Ken Tsurumi, waving goodbye to his wife and two members of staff, watched discreetly by Assistant Superintendent of the Straits Settlements Police, Special Branch (Japanese Section), Alan Blades. Blades had a very keen interest in Tsurumi, both he and his colleagues knew him as a master spy, thanks to the reading of Japan’s diplomatic codes, but were unable to detain him, for fear of giving away the game.

The Asama Maru was bound for Manila, picking up yet more departing Japanese, and then onto Kobe, Japan. With her four big diesel engines and quadruple screws delivering 21 knots, she would make home by the 26 November, before being requisitioned by the IJN as a troopship. Before the end of the month Ken Tsurumi would take a trip to Bangkok, ostensibly for a conference, but not returning before war broke out.
 
But if Japan attacks, and there are insufficient trained reserves to stop them far enough north that all of the rubber plantations' production remains unimpaired, there'll be less rubber exported. There is no rubber-exports-unaffected scenario.

And the worst case of too little production labor available is a temporary loss of production. But the worst case of too few defenders would be a permanent loss of most or all of the supply.

It's Gort's job to assure that the defense prevails and Britain still has access to the resources from mid 1942 onward. He would need to go to Churchill on a strategic conflict like that.

Yes, this is a balance between a definite temporary shortage and a possible permanent shortage. But it's incorrect to say that the governor in Malaya needs to go to Churchill for the strategic conflict, since the UK government has already made its position clear - production could NOT be stopped.

There is also the third possibility, which is that training the reserves would have created a definite temporary shortage and may not have been enough to stop the permanent shortage. From my reading that seems to be the most likely outcome, since a few battalions of inexperienced infantry was unlikely to tip the scales enough to throw the Japanese out. The main point is that the situation does not appear to be as clear-cut as many make out.

The forces that had been allocated to Malaya were vastly under strength compared to even the UK's own overly-optimistic estimates. Nothing apart from a huge upgrade in forces was going to change that.
 
(...) it's incorrect to say that the governor in Malaya needs to go to Churchill for the strategic conflict, since the UK government has already made its position clear - production could NOT be stopped.
My understanding is that it was the Ministry of Production (from February 1942, and the predecessor ministerial responsibilities beforehand)--not "the UK Government"-- that directed thusly to the Governor.

But Gort...I think...is not commanded by the Minister of Production, or by the Governor. He instead is part of a parallel chain of command, headed by the Minister of Defense.

And the Ministry of Defense probably considered holding Singapore and Malaya to be even more strategically important than near term maintenance of production levels of tin and rubber.

Note that Churchill in addition to being PM also was Minister of Defense.

It was specifically a War Cabinet matter when top level directives from different ministries were realized to be in conflict. Especially when one of the ministries was Defense.

Certainly the War Cabinet could decide that production levels of strategic rubber and tin were more important than "a few battalions of inexperienced infantry" as you note. The more important question though is whether Gort ... who definitely had full responsibility to hold Singapore ... also in near-wartime had full command of resources to achieve that responsibility, including economic resources normally "belonging" to ministries other than Defense.
 
My understanding is that it was the Ministry of Production (from February 1942, and the predecessor ministerial responsibilities beforehand)--not "the UK Government"-- that directed thusly to the Governor.

But Gort...I think...is not commanded by the Minister of Production, or by the Governor. He instead is part of a parallel chain of command, headed by the Minister of Defense.

And the Ministry of Defense probably considered holding Singapore and Malaya to be even more strategically important than near term maintenance of production levels of tin and rubber.

Note that Churchill in addition to being PM also was Minister of Defense.

It was specifically a War Cabinet matter when top level directives from different ministries were realized to be in conflict. Especially when one of the ministries was Defense.

Certainly the War Cabinet could decide that production levels of strategic rubber and tin were more important than "a few battalions of inexperienced infantry" as you note. The more important question though is whether Gort ... who definitely had full responsibility to hold Singapore ... also in near-wartime had full command of resources to achieve that responsibility, including economic resources normally "belonging" to ministries other than Defense.

The instruction re rubber came from the Colonial Office, not the MoP and went to the Governor. The excerpt quoted by Percival clearly implies that the Governor, at least in this respect, has the power and not the GOC. I'm not sure how Whitehall or the Minister of Defence would have reacted if Gort complained.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Something to consider, ITTL you not only have a younger more forceful Governor, far more prepared to push back against orders from the Colonial Office. He is the sort of chap who will first appeal to the Secretary of State for the Colonial Office, and if not satisfied with the answer he receives, he will also be prepared to contact the Prime Minister too. Gort is not Percival, he is despite what some think, a thoughtful well trained senior officer, who having been in one very difficult position, where the combination of weak government and ineffective military leadership, caused a resounding defeat. This time around, he isn’t dealing with a foreign government and military, who on one hand outranked him, but were on the other hand junior to him. He instead is dealing with a British government official, so he doesn’t have to be anywhere near as diplomatic, and his superiors in London, who in addition to having a lot on their plates, are generally going to back him up, in a turf war with the Colonial Office. Plus he too will write to the PM, and basically say back me or sack me, and given the attitude of Winston to interfering civil servants, he Winston is more than likely to back him. His argument will be you can see a reduction of the rubber supply temporarily, or you can lose it totally, when the Japanese roll over me.

RR.
 
kpm33.jpg
kpm3801.jpg

kpm3804.jpg
koninklijke-paketvaart-maatschappij8_thumb.jpg
1910_koninklijke_paketvaart_maatschappij_thumb.jpg

Sorry but can't help to spoil this time line with some KPM posters, reflecting the excotic worlds and destinations. Most of these are from the late 30ties, the ones from the 20ties are very nice art-deco prints
KPM,= ''Komt Pas Morgen" = ''won't come until tomorrow''
No doubt the British shipping companies have even more excotic posters of their Asian destinations
 
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Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
kpm33.jpg
kpm3801.jpg

kpm3804.jpg
koninklijke-paketvaart-maatschappij8_thumb.jpg
1910_koninklijke_paketvaart_maatschappij_thumb.jpg

Sorry but can't help to spoil this time line with some KPM posters, reflecting the excotic worlds and destinations. Most of these are from the late 30ties, the ones from the 20ties are very nice art-deco prints
KPM,= ''Komt Pas Morgen" = ''won't come until tomorrow''
No doubt the British shipping companies have even more excotic posters of their Asian destiantions
Hi Parma, fantastic, love em!

Ok, lets see our the Brits among us respond, (notice how I sit on the fence here nicely), and surely our American cousins would have had a few too!And I'm sure the Singapore Straits Steamship company must have had a few too!
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
It's easy for me with 80+ years of hindsight, to look at the Malaya and Singapore situation and view it through the lens of the chaotic Dunkirk evacuations of soldiers and and the subsequent relocation and/or evacuation of children from London during the Blitz and ask why there wasn't more contingency planning for evacuations from Malaya and Singagpore? Or, was that contingency plan worked out for Malaya/Singapore, but got overrun by reality? If it was the latter, then they didn't allow enough shipping.
Hi Driftless, old chap, was you a WAR BABY?
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
They're also notes about facts that couldn't be ignored. From the available information, for example, if you do pull reserves away from plantations for training then there will be less rubber exported. So what operations and munition production planned for (say) mid 1942 should have been cut back due to lack of tin and rubber?
Hi JasTysoe and JWilly48519, this is an interesting discussion about rubber production and export. Malaya was a huge exporter of rubber, as well as tin, both strategic raw materials, and a massive dollar earner, when Britain's balance of trade with the US was deeply in the red. The administration in my TL is as committed as was historically in producing and exporting as much tin and rubber as it can. With that in mind, upsetting the local economy with evacuations, other than bouches inutiles, is not happening. Likewise, the majority of militia called to the colours are only there to defend their homeland when it is threatened. That isn't to say there aren't impositions placed on the local economy, with some ships taken from trade for coastal defence work with the Royal Navy and rubber plantation managers called up for weekend service, but the rubber and tin industries aren't going to get shut down until any advance of the Japanese forces them.
 
Well, I'm not THAT old..... I once met a woman (older than me) who, as a child, had been sent to stay with Canadian relatives during the war. That's as close as I've come
I had an aunt who was evacuated, always been told my grndma couldn't afford the other 3 being evacuated
 
MWI 41111700 Guardians Of The Tanks

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Monday 17 November;

The plan was to form a tank brigade, but they were well short of that at the moment, the best they had been able to do was pair the 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry with the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, along with a small ad hoc unit of the RAOC. For about two months previously, Lt Col Ralph Cox had the Fusiliers training in a mechanised, mobile role, using a lot of carriers and some armoured cars, working on how to punch through road blocks, or advance to contact, but it was difficult to realistically create without the tanks.

Now the tank regiment had arrived, with their Valentine Mk II’s, and they were beginning to train together, the first thing striking the tankers, was how little vision they had, along the road, the frequent bends limited their distance vision while the jungle either side was almost impenetrable. Only with the tank commander standing half out the tank could they make any real progress. All smaller bridges had to be crossed with care, one tank at a time, and indeed quite a number of bridges had already been deemed too weak to carry the 16-ton vehicles, and were either being reinforced or rebuilt for later use, or barred for use by tanks.

Moving into the rubber plantations, with care they could pick their way along the tracks, but all jungle had to be reconnoitred first, and padi fields treated with extreme caution. And the accompanying infantry had to appreciate that just because their carriers could go there didn’t mean the tanks could too. Strategic travel was a problem by train, some parts were impassable due to the narrowness of tunnels and cuttings. In addition, there was a shortage of rail flatbeds, and their use wasn’t exclusive to tanks, secondly where they got on/off the train had to be planned, with an adjoining road, and the tracks being on flat land, allowing the use of a ramp. Strategic travel on the roads also presented issues, the RAOC had only received six Scammell Pioneer tank transporters.

The Northamptonshire’s were organised as a headquarters squadron, with four tanks, and three sabre squadrons, each with four troops of four. They were supposed to have 8 close support tanks, but these weren’t available, and had been given more Valentines instead, giving them a total of 54 tanks, with 31 officers and 546 other ranks.

The two commanders were spending quite a lot of time together, thrashing out some ideas as how things might work. Operationally, they were trying to match an infantry company with a tank squadron, but quickly found a couple of platoons were needed for each troop, and so they had used a reinforced company. Lt Col Cox, being the old Malaya hand, had taken command of the experimental combined unit, while Lt Col Otho Prior-Palmer of the Northamptonshire’s remained back at Camp Mertajam, organising their barracks, creating proper combined tank and infantry training exercises, as well as overseeing the building of repair and refit facilities with the RAOC.

Both Lt Cols had been taken into confidence about Operation Matador, and told to provide one combined tank unit by 1st December, and a second by 1st January. Cox would command the first, and feedback what alterations, adjustments, tactics and best practice were required. And while a second unit was training back at camp, it would also provide replacements for the field unit. And so, the race was on to get the first unit, which was being called Cox Force, to Alor Star by the beginning of December.
 

Driftless

Donor
Not enough time left before the shooting starts for proper training, but at least they aren't coming in stone cold. Even limited field work has identified problem areas and organized thought is being worked up how to deal with those problems
 
If they don't have CS tanks, they might want to attach some spare Carriers to the forward tank platoons, with two inch mortars and a stock of WP smoke and HE. That already should be known from Libya.

One difference being, jungle dampness hampers the effectiveness of normal titanium tetrachloride screening smoke, so the alternate WP smoke shells' heat and whiteness/opacity are useful. The ordnance chaps should have that in hand.

Also signal shells for the mortar attached to the tactical command troop, in case night comms break down in battle; and illumination shells, for backlighting enemy ambush positions.

wph2.jpg

pyr2.jpg
 
Also: the tankers should be thinking hard about the susceptibility of unbuttoned tank commanders to sniping from the excellent cover alongside the jungle roads. One technique for that, unique to the British Army and practiced since WWI, is to use indirect fire from Vickers MMGs...in this case, a standard weapon for Carriers...to lay down beaten zones along the edges of jungle roads they must traverse without infantry having secured them first.

The standard Vickers beaten zone at 800m range is 177m long and only 2.7m wide. That of course can be swept slowly side-to-side, that being the purpose of the Vickers' complex gun controls.

The British Army provides ample standard ammo loads for Vickers units for the specific purpose of indirect fire.

Fragments are rapidly slowed by passing through jungle foliage, but MMG bullets have excellent penetration and retained lethality. And, infantry under indirect MMG fire have no way to know the source.

 
Are these Valentines equipped with external infantry phones hooked to the intercom?

The British are believed to have been the first to experiment with tank phones, during WWI. So, it would seem that even if early-war Valentines weren't so equipped from the factory, the Royal Signals fellows would have it in hand.
 
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