How can I prevent the modern European countries from having any colonies located in Africa or Asia? And how would these regions develop without European colonialism? What would language, religion, culture, borders and politics look like in these regions?
No European colonies in Africa and Asia
- Thread starter Siberian Tiger
- Start date
Having the Mamelukes survive would help in that POD as it prevents colonies in Asia.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
What constitutes “colonies” here? And what constitutes “Africa” and/or “Asia” (for example, does North Africa count as Africa)? I ask, mainly so that we’re clear when “colonies” emerged, so we have some idea of how late the PoDs can be.
Depending on definitions, we could be talking mainly about preventing the dominating rise of the BEI in the Indian subcontinent; or, if the OP allows for a “mulligan” that big, we could talking about holding off events that start in the mid 19th Century (so, for example, a PoD in the Napoleonic Wars is on the table).
Depending on definitions, we could be talking mainly about preventing the dominating rise of the BEI in the Indian subcontinent; or, if the OP allows for a “mulligan” that big, we could talking about holding off events that start in the mid 19th Century (so, for example, a PoD in the Napoleonic Wars is on the table).
Or, just have Europe be completely decimated in population by the Black Death and/or the Mongol conquests.
How does the Manelukes surviving prevent the Europeans from going around
Africa to reach Asia?
More players in the indian ocean? If Portugal, Spain, France, England, Netherlands and Denmark somehow all jump on the Indian ocean trade in 17th century, they would be too busy fighting with each other to colonize Asia. Local powers could also play them against each other.
Both India and Indonesia only got colonised when one power dominated the Indian ocean.
Both India and Indonesia only got colonised when one power dominated the Indian ocean.
Europe had colonies in Asia, such as India, Phillipines, and Indonesia, long before the Suez canal was created or even before the Ottomans lost control of Egypt.
For the main thing, keeping colonization to a minimum, you need to keep non-european military, along with industrial, chemical, and medical technology, from being left behind by Europe. Particularly naval technology which is honestly one of the biggest advantages Europe/The West had over everyone even to today.
Now that doesn't stop everything, the British didn't conquer India with better technology for the most part, but mainly just acting like any other local power conquering the region and co-opting the local rulers and power brokers, no different than the Mughals or Vijayanagara before them.
As for effects? Honestly depends on how you stopped it and if the locals don't do their own empire building. Southeast Asia could easily have been united under Thailand, Burma, or Vietnam, or split between two or all three, if they weren't conquered by the Chinese empire. India could end up largely united or fragmented into a dozen or more kingdoms, same with Indonesia. Same with Africa, several dozen nations, or a few powerful local empires.
Now that doesn't stop everything, the British didn't conquer India with better technology for the most part, but mainly just acting like any other local power conquering the region and co-opting the local rulers and power brokers, no different than the Mughals or Vijayanagara before them.
As for effects? Honestly depends on how you stopped it and if the locals don't do their own empire building. Southeast Asia could easily have been united under Thailand, Burma, or Vietnam, or split between two or all three, if they weren't conquered by the Chinese empire. India could end up largely united or fragmented into a dozen or more kingdoms, same with Indonesia. Same with Africa, several dozen nations, or a few powerful local empires.
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My first response is to summon the glaciers down again, but that's forbidden as a geologic POD. I would say that the only other agent that can stop Europe is Y. Pestis. Make the death toll more like 90%, especially along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts. Going back further to the 8th century, have the Iberian Moslems overwhelm Western Europe while the Caliphate captures Constantinople and sweeps through the Balkans into Central Europe. But it is too deterministic to say that a Moslem Europe, however it shakes out politically, would not have developed the same technological prowess as OTL Europe. Just in different ways and at different times.
Any colony made by a European country after 1500. Any part of Africa (including North Africa) and Asia is off limits.
Could you elaborate?
Are we thinking of the same Mamluks?
While a quick googling reveals that Gujarat and Yemen (and possibly others) turned to the Malmuk Sultanate
for aid around 1500 when the Portuguese started misbeahving in the Indian Ocean, I'm not sure they would
be much better at it than the Ottomans who in OTL conquered them a few decades.
The Mamluks can give the Portuguese a hard time discouraging colonization by the other European colonizers.
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What do we mean by colonies? Because it would be easy to restrict European colonialism to just coastal ports and trade forts
No, having the Mamelukes survive actually strengthens the Portuguese even more than in the OTL. The Ottomans were able to fight the Portuguese in the Indian Sea, fight not win. Malacca sultanate likely collapses before OTL. The Mamelukes were not even competition, with them remaining in power Portugal will control from the Red Sea to almost the China Sea without competition (at least until other European powers try to advance in Asia).
Ps:Something interesting is that the Ethiopians may come out stronger in a TL with the Mamluks controlling Egypt. So this is something unique.
Look, this is not viable. What can be done (without being ABS) is not to have the conquest of India and partition of Africa like in OTL. In India, the most likely in this case will have some European ports with areas of influence. And in Africa we don't have a Berlin conference. But not having any port in Africa and Asia controlled by Europeans is impossible. Because they were already in Africa before 1500.
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Just restrict European colonialism to costal ports and trade forts.
I guess that counts, if the Asia based Caliphate conquers most of the former Roman Empire, then proceeds to colonize down Africa and into India it's not European colonization.
The Ottomans and Mamelukes can prevent the Portuguese if they cooperate against them, that is the detail that I forgot to tell earlier.
That's extremely unlikely to happen, especially with the Safavids also involved in the region. More likely to see one of them work with the Portuguese, why would the Ottomans care about Africa and Indonesia if they can get help in weaking the Mamelukes and Safavids in order to conquer Egypt and Mesopotamia themselves? Good reminder that the Turks were as much imperial colonizers as any other European nation.
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